PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE
Reference :-
PHIC.O.882/11
mmimmim
PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON
| ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH—NOT TO BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC-
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suggest a spirit of give-and-take. We are not bluffing: a settle- ment would involve a serious financial burden. We want a real settlement, not only in name but in fact.
Mr. Brenan: Politically you need our help and moral support. You will not get it in this way.
Mr. Ch'ên: We need the assistance of other Powers as well. Your assistance is not a condition of our national existence.
It was arranged that the statement by the Chinese delegation on the enquiry proposal would be forwarded to the Consulate on the following day (22nd), and that separate communiqués would be issued.
NOTES OF PROCEEDINGS, No. 5.
In accordance with arrangements made between the Consul- General and Mr. Ch'ên at the Foreign Office in an interview on the 22nd July, meeting No. 5 was held at 10.30 a.m. (Friday), the 23rd July. Arrangements as before.
Mr. Ch❜ên
Mr. Brenan read British delegation's statement. then read the formal proposal of the Chinese delegation on the commission of enquiry.
Mr. Brenan: If Shakee is to be the subject of the enquiry by the commission, we fail to see how it is possible to exclude the French. Shameen is not all British, British and French forces acted to- gether on 23rd June, and, no doubt, some of the deaths on Shakee were due to French fire. French co-operation in the enquiry is. .therefore, necessary, and a French Judge would have to be added to those suggested by you.
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We ask information on certain points connected with the enquiry. Would the Canton Government make the necessary arrangements? As concerns preliminary expenses, is the Canton Government prepared to pay for the Judges, their passages and other expenses? Would the Canton Government make a deposit for security against such immediate damages as the cost of bring- ing the witnesses here, apart from such damages as may be adjudged in the finding on the boycott.
The suggestion for an enquiry puts us at a disadvantage. It may be impossible, for instance, to produce some of our essential witnesses, while the Canton Government has all its witnesses here. The reading of statements is of less value than oral testimony. Evidence of events more than a year old loses much of its value as it is impossible to expect the impressions of witnesses to remain clear cut and accurate.
Mr. Kemp: In (f) of your statement you arrange for written Some statements to be submitted at the enquiry, if necessary. of these statements are letters to the newspapers, and it may
be
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that the originals cannot be found. Do you propose to exclude tatements of this nature, and to include only formal statements taken before a British authority?
Mr. Ch'ên: We propose to exclude statements of the nature of letters to the newspapers.
Mr. Brenan: That excludes much material evidence.
Mr. Soong: I hardly envisage evidence for which witnesses cannot be found.
Mr. Kemp: There is perhaps evidence in official despatches. Statements, for instance, made by Sir James Jamieson on his personal experiences.
Mr. Ch'ên: Certainly that would be allowed; but the admission of statements in the Press would expose us to ridicule. If I ac- cepted the suggestion you would say we were trifling. We will go to the possible limit to make the enquiry a reasonable one.
Mr. Brenan: Then it becomes essential to find the witnesses.
Mr. Ch'ên: Would witnesses who had written letters to the Press be important if you could produce them?
Mr. Brenan: I quote Miss Meadows' letter from 23rd June, "The Truth " (Letter read).
Mr. Ch'én: Suppose you put Miss Meadows in the witness-box, and she made the bald statement to that effect. Do you mean that you would say it was not fair to exclude her evidence?
Mr. Brenan: What I say is that we should find her if possible for the enquiry.
Mr. Ch'ên: We certainly would exclude her letter. Suppose there had been an enquiry at the time, have you any evidence to show that you could have produced Miss Meadows in person?
Mr. Brenan: Certainly.
Mr. Kemp: You were saying that you proposed to exclude evidence in the nature of letters to the Press?
Mr. Soong: We will go as far as it is possible to go. If letters on the British side are to be admitted, then Chinese letters should be admitted too.
Mr. Kemp: My point is that I want you to make clear what statements you would include and what you would object to.
Mr. Brenan: Your witnesses are here. Ours are scattered. Mr. Soong: That is not necessarily correct. Some of ours may be in America.
Mr. Brenan: Some of ours we know are away.
Mr. Kemp: In sub-section (c) of your statement you include two separate things. One is the determination of the responsibility for the shooting. The other is the formulation of recommenda-
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