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TEEN C.O. 885
PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON
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be done in the interests of the Mother Country, we should all receive it with joy, and more especially as it will affect those countries who by their coastwise laws are shutting out not only the Colonial products, but the products and manufactures of the Mother Country. So that the resolution, to my mind, does not go far enough; but it is probably as far as we can go at present. Ishall, therefore, support it as it stands, and hope that the Conference will pass it.
Sir EDMUND BARTON: I am just in the same position, Mr. Chamber- lain. I do not see any objection to the resolution being carried at once I am fully in accord with its purposes, aud I do think that it will be a means of preserving the trade of the Empire to the Empire against those who are not entitled to the least consideration in consequence of their way of looking at the question.
The SECRETARY OF STATE: Of course, we understand quite well what we mean by the coastwise trade, but I think we had better define it more clearly--the possibility of refusing the privileges of coastwise trade, including the trade between the Mother Country and its Colonies and its possessions, and between one Colony or Possession and another. That is what we mean by coastwise trade; not merely the trade around our own coasts,
Mr. SEDDON: Oh, no; include the Colonies.
The SECRETARY OF STATE: With that amendment, therefore, I put the resolution.
Sir ALBERT HIME: May I say a word, sir? I think there is a good deal in what Mr. Fielding has said with regard to this coastwise trade, and whether we should gain any advantage in the reciprocity which is proposed. If there is reciprocity, and we say we are not going to give this coastwise trade to France, or Russia, or the United States, unless they grant us reci. procity, they will at once grant us that reciprocity, because by that means they will have everything to gain and nothing to lose. We shall be giving them far and away more than we can get from them, because we get very little of their trade, and our vessels do very little in connection with their trade. Therefore, they would get far more advantage than we could have. And is it not desirable that we should consider what Mr. Fielding has said, whether or not it is desirable that under certain circumstances we should give ligences to those countries which do not give that reciprocity. I think that is what
you said, Mr. Fielding?
Mr. FIELDING: Yes.
'Sir ALBERT HIME: To carry on a coastwise trade, if necessary, to take cargo at our ports, or to bring cargo to your ports. Then, if they do not have reciprocity you might be able to give them licences for certain sums, in order that they may be allowed to carry on that trade. What I feel is that the reciprocity will be all in favour of the other countries, and the Mother Country will gain very little by it. The whole of the trade, or the major portion of the trade, is already carried on by British ships, and whatever concessions we may give, if we give reciprocity it will be at once taken advantage of, and the foreign vessels, by means of the subsidies which are granted by their Governments will be able to compete with our trade in the same way as they are doing at the present time. It seems to me to be worthy of consideration what would happen if we should give reciprocity at all, and whether we should leave out reciprocity and adopt simply the system of granting licences to foreign countries. Leave out the question of recipro- city, and adopt our own laws for coastal trade-our own navigation laws for coastal trade, granting licences in each case where we consider it necessary for foreign ships to carry on the trade between the different Colonies in the Empire.
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Mr. FIELDING: With regard to the remarks of Sir Albert Hime as to this being my suggestion, I may say that it is not my suggestion. It came from an official in His Majesty's Government. It was suggested to me by a gentleman who has given much consideration to this subject, that in the Colonies we ought to try and go a bit further and adopt something which I understand is a licence or privilege. But it is not my suggestion, and I have no right to take the credit of it. The resolution as it reads is in accordance with the opinion of the Canadian Ministers at the last meeting. I merely expressed the view which has been conveyed to me by an official in His Majesty's Government, and I thought it worth mentioning.
The PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE: I think Sir Albert Hime is wrong when he says that nations which now close their coastal trade to us have so much to gain by our keeping our coastal trade open to them, and that on a threat to close it they would be immediately prepared to open their trade to us. I very much doubt it. The United States and France and Russia have our coastal traile thrown open to them now, and their share of it is exceedingly small. I must say that I think if it is proposed to enlarge the scope of this resolution so as to include not merely reciprocity but an absolute reservation of our coastal trade, the matter is one which requires very careful consideration.
Sir WILFRED LAURIER: It is not a concrete resolution at all. It is simply inviting the attention of the respective Governments to a condition of things which requires attention, and that is all. I see no objection to it. Even the objections which Sir Albert Hime has referred to, could be dealt with later.
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The SECRETARY OF STATE: I think those objections are serious. personally agree with them. I do not think that the reciprocity that the resolution suggests, would secure the result which I believe we all have in view, and if this resolution were pledging us to such a course, I certainly would be disinclined to proffer it, but I interpret it entirely as Sir Edmun! Burton and Sir Wilfrid Laurier have done, as merely directing attention to the whole subject with the view of some useful suggestions being thereafter made. And perhaps it might be made a little more clear if the Conference agree, if we were to add at the end of the resolution :
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"Or whether any other steps should be taken to promote Imperial trade between British vessels.""
That would, of course, cover all these questions instead of being confined to an absolute reciprocity. And there is also another matter coilateral, but I think of very great importance, which we have not hitherto considered, and that is that by our British legislation we impose, in the interests of the seamen, and safety in trade, and humanity generally, a great number of regulations which are not imposed upon foreign ships, and the result is that on a purely commercial basis they have the preference or advantage over our ships. For instance, we impose upon every British ship a load-line, below which no ship is allowed to be loaded, believing it is not sale, if the legal line is exceeded, that it is not safe and that it is not fair to impose this danger upon the people who navigate the ships. But foreign ships have no such load-line, and it frequently happens that a foreign ship leaves our port loaded up to the hilt, while a British ship-
The PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE: I should very much like to have particulars of such cases.
The SECRETARY OF STATE: Well, I will say what I have to say.
If
I am wrong in it, no doubt you will correct me. But I will not put it so strongly. I will not put it that it frequently happens. Certainly I under- stood, and it used to be the case, that it was possible for a foreign ship to leave our ports more heavily loaded than the law of this country would
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