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The SECRETARY OF STATE: I think that where the interests of a particular Colony or group of Colonies have been specially concerned, it has been our custom to invite the assistance of those Colonies, and in the case, for instance, of negotiations with the United States of America in regard to matters in which Canada has a primary interest, we have not only dong that, but we have secured the representation upon the Board--the Conference which was to settle the details of any agreement--of the Canadians, and, of late yours, in, I think. a decided majority, and, no doubt, if anything of the same sqrt arose in connection with the Commonwealth of Australia we should purste the same course. The only difficulty in dealing with the matter by anything like a general decision lies in the fact that most treaties deal with a vast amount of detail which has to be discussed in private. It would be fatal, probably, to success to have anything but a confidential discussion of such matters. Before the points of the treaty are arranged, and where the Colonics are not directly interested or very strongly interested, it is, no doubt, a difficult matter to secure their representation. The foreign countries con- corned would object to their personal representation in such cases, and it would be impossible for us to make communications to the respective Governments if they are to be the subject of public discussion.
Sir EDMUND BARTON: Have I made myself sufficiently clear on this point? As the matter now stands it may be different in each Colony- we are asked Will you take this treaty or not? There may be mattors in it which would just prevent the treaty being accepted; some objections which might easily be removed by prior consultation. Now if the Imperial Government knew on those occasions what the Colonies really did want, the treaty night be framed in such a way that it would be much more readily entered into by them, and would much more readily secure their adhesion, which, I think, would be of vory great benefit all round,
The SECRETARY OF STATE; I think I ought to add that I only guarded myself by a sort of cavent in a particular case; but as far as it has been practicable, that is a course which has been pursued, and I might point out as an illustration of that, that we have been engaged in questions both with Belgium an:l Germany with rogard to commercial treaties, and we have already forwarded two separate drafts of possible arrangements to the Colonies for their observations. In the case of the treaty which resulted in the disposal of Samoa we also communicated with the Australian Colonies concerned in regard to what was possible, and had the benefit of their advice aud suggestions before the treaty was finally ratified.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: 1, of course, cannot speak of the condition of things which may prevail in Australia, nor do I know if Sir Edmund Barton has any particular case in his mind. I might say that so far as Canada is concerned we have no fault to find of no complaint to make as to the way in which we have been treated in the matter of treaties in the last years:
In all the treaties in which we have been indirectly interested as a Colony, no action has been taken that could affect us until we had been given an opportunity, either to accept or dissont from that treaty, or to present observations with regard to it. In all matters in which we have been primarily concerned, as in our relations with our neighbours, the United States, not only have wo boon consulted, but wo have been directly given a pre- ponderating voice in the discussions and in the treaty making. So far as that matter is concerned we are quite satisfied with the conditions of things. I do not know whether Sir Edmund Barton has thought of putting forward at this Conference the suggestion which is in his mind——
Sir EDMUND BARTON: I just wanted to hear what was said in tho discussion, and after what the Secretary of State has said it is possible I may not put any definite resolution before the Conference, because an under- standing, such as ho speaks of, might serve the purpose of any resolution.
Mr. SEDDON: Well, I am obliged to say that I accept, of course, the assurance of the Secretary of Stato; so long as he is Secretary of State for
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the Colonies it is all right, lo not think we require any moré, but there may, he a change anifauother Secretary of State, and if so, it would be advisable that we have something on record to show what our views upon the question and what our desires are, and it is certainly the desire of the people of New Zealand that we should be consulted. And, with deference to the Government and the prosent. Secretary of State for the Colonies, we think our · représentations with respect to Sarca have not been given so much effect to as we thought they ought to have. Of course we are not in a position to judge of what there may have beon bosides behind that-we were not aware of at the time, but we certainly deeply regret that chango-that reversal of policy on the part of the Imperial Government-notwithstanding what the Colonies interested had said. It has helped the Americans in their coastwise laws in taking away from us the possibility of any trade between the islands so far as New Zealand is concerned. Wo have been detrimentally affected, and seriously so. My own opinion is, as I say, in the case of a chango-and there may be a different view held by the Government, and it would only be with the object of putting it on record as our wishes that I respectfully urgo. the Prime Minister of the Commonwealth to agree that we should have something on record.
The SECRETARY OF STATE: I may say, in reference to Mr. Soddon's remarks, that although the result was not satisfactory to him and to his Government, Fet New Zealand was consulted, and communication was mando to them before the treaty was signed. We regretted that, having regard to all the interests concerned, wo could not accept the view of the New Zealand Government, but it was not for want of consideration.
Sir EDMUND BARTON: Mr. Chamberlian, it might perhaps be desirable that something should be placed on record. might reduce this to some form, such as the following:- So far as may be consistent with confidential negotiations for treaties with foreign Powers the views of the Colonies should be obtained," with the view in order to give adhesion to such treaties.
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The SECRETARY OF STATE: The views of the Colonies where they are interested?
Sir EDMUND BARTON: Yes, the Colonies affected. ❘ will insert the word, affected."
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The SECRETARY OF STATE: Will you read that again?
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Sir EDMUND BARTON : So far as may be consistent with confidential negotiations for treaties with foreign Powers the views of the Colonies affected should be obtained.”
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: That is precisely the condition of affairs so far as Canada is concernel.
The Secretary of State put the following Resolution to the Conferenco and it was carried unanimously :
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That so far as may be consistent with the confidential negotiation of treaties with Foreign Powers, the views of the Colonies affected should be obtained in order that they may be in a better position to give adhesion to such treaties."
IMPERIAL COURT OF APPEAL.
The SECRETARY OF STATE: The next is the question of the Imperial Court of Appeal in the name of the Government of the Commonwealth.
Sir EDMUND BARTON; I cannot go on with that to-day. There is a mistake in regard to the notice. I did not know that either (b) or (c) were 0-2
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coming on to-day. I think it was only the (); consequently I have not brought any papers with me on that subject.
The SECRETARY OF STATE: We will postpone that and consider under the head of
COMMERCIAL RELATIONS OF THE EMPIRE.
There is the question of the loss of the most-favoured nation treatment, if preference is given to Great Britain, which stands in the name of the Commonwealth.
Sir EDMUND BARTON: It is not necessary to make any proposal on it, I think now, as we all remember what took place in the case of the Canadian preference, that the result after the denunciation of the treaty was. that the most-favoured nation treatment was withdrawn from Canada. It is simply, I suppose, at the present time a fact that such a consequence is possible in the case of any preference, although there is no treaty in existence which particularly affects the question now. 'That is one of the outlooks on the question of particular preferences. I do not know that it is necessary now to make any motion on that subject.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: It is a point, however, on which we might have a word or two of discussion. We think that the action of Germany was hardly justified after the denunciation of the treaty, and it would be just as well to see what at the present time would be the effect of a policy of a preferential treatment being adopted. The position which we have taken on this question in Canada is this, that all arrangements mado between the different portions of the British Empire are in the nature of natural arrangements which cannot be taken offence at by other nations, I think that if we chose to make an arrangement or treaty between ourselves, that is to say all the nations which owe allegiance to the sovereignty of Great Britain, those do not violate the dispositions of international comity. There is no reason at all why the proferential treatment should be withdrawn from us, and we think that the action of Germany has not been justifiel, and could not be justified. It is a question for consideration in view of what I have in mind, and we all hope to see achieved or established better trade between the British Empire and her Colonies.
The SECRETARY OF STATE: Of course, in that particular case, Germany made the law for herself. Wo agree entirely with the view which is taken by the Prime Minister of Canada, and we think that arrangements, as between the different parts of the Empire, should be absolutely free and undisturbed by any treaties between ourselves and foreign nations, but it is an indisputable fact that Gormany took a different view, and acted upon her view of the position, not to the serious injury of Canada, but the intention was there.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: The grain merchants are complaining that They lost the trade of Germany. I may bring the matter before your atten- tion, as to what answer Germany has made to our representations which have been made. upon this subject.
The SECRETARY OF STATE: I could not tell you that to-day.
Sir WILFRID. LAURIER: No.
The SECRETARY OF STATE: I do not understand that any resolution
is moved as to that.
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Sir WILERID LAURIER: I may refer to this subject again, and it may be possible to move a resolution upon it.
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The SECRETARY OF STATE: A memorandum has been circulated I understand, Sir Wilfred, upon the subject, from which it appears that application has been made to Germany, but that she has refuse to stir in the matter. So far as can be judged from the Canadian trado returns, the action of Germany has not had any serious consequences to Canada. The average exports of Canadian produce to Germany, I think, for two years prior to its exclusion from the most-favoured nation treatment, and for the two years following, and for the first ton months of the present statistical year, were as follows: The period of the first two years was $1,091,000, and for the second two years that is after the action of Germany--it had rieon to $1,209,000, so that tra le had increased in spite of the action takon by Germany, and in the ten months ending 1902 there seems to have been a still further increase, as the total frado then amounted to $1,102,000.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: These figures apply to Canada.
Mr. FIELDING: Substantially the general trade with Canada has not suffered. Particular lines may have suffere!, but the aggregate of our business with Germany has not suffered. Anyhow our German exports are a drop in the bucket. We are not to allow that to stand in the way. If wo knew the grounds upon which Germany based her objection, we should be in a better position to understand her action. For myself I have always folt that there was something to be said from the point of view of Germany. We had a treaty with Germany. We were in some degroo instrumental in having that treaty denounced. Germany said: "You were not satisfied with the
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treaty conditions; you were a factor in ending them; you must take the consequences." We have thought that if our position were fully explained to them, if they were patiently reasoned with, they would see that their grounds could not be sustained. We had hoped that after patient represen- tations to the Government of Germany, something might be done. Other- wise there is a very strong feeling in our Parliament that we should adopt soothing which might be called retaliatory measures. We have a very large importation of German sugar. It would not take very much legis- lation to turn the German sugar away, and bring in British, West Indian sugar, and if the German Government persist in what we think a most unjust view, we may really have to consider the advisability of thinking over the other side of the question.
The SECRETARY OF STATE: 1 believe that you have the remedy in your hands if you choose to exercise it.
MUTUAL PROTECTION OF PATENTS.
The SECRETARY OF STATE: Then the next point is the mutual tection of patents, also in the name of the Government of the Coinmonwealth.
pro-
Sir EDMUND BARTON: The Minister of Trade and Customs of the Commonwealth is anxious that some reference should be made to this question with a view to such protection as can be mutually extended to patents. I have no particular papers on the subject. I do not know whether there are any in this office.
It would seem to Mr. Kingston that some means of extending protection to patents in each other's jurisdiction will be a very advisable thing for the furtherance and encouragement of invention.
The SECRETARY OF STATE: Of course a practical difficulty lies in the difference of the laws of the different countries.
Sir EDMUND BARTON: Exactly.
The SECRETARY OF STATE: Unless one can bring about a similarity of law, it would be impossible, I think, to secure a mutual protection.
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