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moments that you can make the people one in the sense of sacrifice. They are accustomed in the Colonies to mind their own affairs; they are accustomed to Imperial defence without paying for it, and it has crystallised almost that relationship. I really feel that any attempt to do what is right, even if you mean in the way of partnership, in the way of contribution, although my friend, who is full of the most proper sentiments, is ready to contribute a million per annum on the part of New Zealand, I find, and we would all find, the greatest difficulty in drawing closer the tie; we should subject it to a strain-a strain which would destroy the sentiment; and, therefore, with the warmest feelings and attachment to the mother country, with the most anxious desire always to maintain that attachment, the only difficulty I can foresee, I say, is, that there is a tremendous onus upon those who wish to change the present relations, because at present the present relations have produced an Empire, and a state of things within that Empire which is not paralleled either in history or in fact. Now it is no light thing to change those relations, and the onus, Bay,
is tremendous upon those
who wish to. Therefore, I say, that if my friend can work out a scheme which throws aside the present valuable relations, and shows us clearly that the new state of things would be better, then I am prepared to join him with heart and soul. Our feelings are all the same.
The Secretary of State.] May I put one question to you? I gather that you are not prepared for the federal union, such as that of the United States of America, with all its consequences; I did not expect you would be.
Mr. Reid.] One of the consequences would be an equal representation in the House of Commons.
The Secretary of State.] We could not take the exact form of the constitu- tion, because I believe the Americans themselves-all the more intelligent of them-admit that there are very great evils closely adhering to that. Political motives promote the creating of States which are not States at all, and that has really introduced very great scandals into the American history. But putting that aside as being altogether too large a matter even to consider at the present moment, then there are two or three other suggestions. One is the suggestion which I threw out, that certain gentlemen might be deputed by the Colonies as a sort of permanent consultative council. I see, I admit myself, the greatest difficulties in dealing with a suggestion of that kind, though I made it myself, because whatever weight you give to the opinion of those gentlemen, you cannot be certain that they would always remain in close touch with their own Colonies, or that their views and decisions would be respected by their own Colonies.
Mr. Seddon.] To meet that at once; if there is a change of Government in the Colonies there might be a change of representatives in the Council, the former appointment being determined.
The Secretary of State.] But will any Government, or any Colony even for the time each Government lasts, place in the hands of some person here the right to decide its course?
Mr. Seddon.] No.
Mr. Reid.] Automatic representation?
The Secretary of State.] No, I think not. And that being so, you do not seem to go further by this council than we have got in the Agents-General stating that such and such is the view of their Government, but who will never on any account pledge their Colony on the most minute thing. I ask any Agent-General, What will be the opinion of your Government? What would you advise them to do in a particular matter?" and the answer has always been, "We cannot say until we have communicated.”
"
Sir George Turner.] Communication by telegraph is so rapid now.
The Secretary of State.] The communication by telegraph is what you wish to avoid when you have personal representation. It is always difficult by telegraph, and even by despatch, to have anything like free and full inter-
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change of thought, which of course can be obtained when there is personal representation. That would be a great difficulty in such a consultative council as I have proposed, and would prevent any very large advance on the present system. Then there is the other suggestion, which I rather took from what fell from Mr. Seddon, that is, that the desire might be expressed that we should have periodical conferences of representatives of the Colonies and the mother country; that is to say, that instead of leaving each meeting to be called ad hoc for a particular purpose, it should be understood that once in three years, or five years, or ten years, or whatever period was thought desirable, a conference should be held. Possibly, such a conference might be beld alternately in one of the Colonies and at home. It would not be neces- sary that it should be held in London, although there are some advantages, because I suppose London is a more central place on the whole, and is covenient. But at all events the geographical convenience would have to be considered, and, of course, if an expression of opinion went out from this Conference that such an arrangement was desirable, I think that it might be reasonably adopted, and that, of course, would not pledge us to anything, but would only pledge us to the holding of a conference for the discussion of all matters of interest to the Colonies.
may say,
Mr. Seddon.] I
with respect to that, that of late years we have commenced that I think we have commenced it by having a conference of Premiers. Premiers have no power to commit their Colonies in any way, but the result of these conferences, has been really what we have now and have been having between the authorities meeting and consulting. That has been the outcome of those conferences. We had this year a conference in which the whole of the Colonies were represented. Well, great advantages have resulted from an interchange of thought in conference between the Premiers. You may extend that and bring in the mother country. It is convenient for the Premiers to come or to have some representative of the respective Governments. I say that that can easily be done. Then, go a little further something has been said respecting details. As to the constitution, it has been in my mind as to whether or not, if such a person were a represen- tative at a conference, he should not have the right to pledge the Government of the Colony which he represents; he should become a member of the Executive Council; he would then be working in unison with his col- leagues and be responsible in that respect. It is just the same as being here to-day. Our Colonies are far away, and what are we doing? communicating with them on the subjects that we are dealing with, and have been dealing with since this Conference took place, and I say that we are well within our constitutional rights in so doing. As to the sentiment, I know that there is a difference of sentiment as far as New Zealand is concerned, and particularly New South Wales.
Mr. Reid.] In sentiment?
Mr. Seddon.] There is a difference.
We are
Mr. Reid.] There is extremely little; that is the only difference of sentiment that I am aware of.
Mr. Seddon.] I am afraid there is; I am speaking now of New Zealand and the New Zealanders.
Mr. Reid.] I speak for New South Wales.
Sir George Turner.] Do not quarrel among yourselves.
Mr. Seddon.] I do not think we shall do that; I should not do right by myself or by my Colony if I allowed what has been said by Mr. Reid to be untouched. I Say he may speak the mind of his Colony and the sentiment of his Colony. Judged from that, if he represents the sentiment of his Colony, I say that he does not represent the sentiment of New Zealand; that is what I want to make very clear. As to responsibility, if we receive responsibility, 0 3
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