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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON!
POLITICAL RELATIONS.
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whether or not the constitution of such a Council would be a benefit to the Colonies and to the Empire.
Sir George Turner.] It all depends upon the powers of the Council.
Mr. Reid.] Just consider: This Council would have the effect of removing the balance of political power from the Colonies to London. At present each self-governing Colony has the right to make representations to the Imperial Government on all matters of Imperial concern which affect that particular part of the Empire. It is full of difficulties. If this Council is to exercise a power, then, in one sense, it removes Parliamentary institutions from Australia to London.
Mr. Seddon.] No, no.
Sir Wilfrid Laurier.] The present relations are satisfactory undoubtedly, but remember this, that there is a national sentiment growing in every Colony. Take the case of Canada as an example. The day is not far distant when you will have in Canada a population of 10,000,000. With all the loyalty which exists in Canada at the present day, it will not be satisfactory to the Colony under such circumstances that the present relations should continue in their present condition. Those relations must get looser or they must get stronger; that is inevitable.
Sir John Forrest.] The freer they are, the stronger they will be. Mr. Kingston.] The stronger will be the sentiment.
Mr. Reid.] At present, great nations whose interests are hopelessly intermixed in conflict are able to communicate by ambassadors, and to solve all sorts of complex questions with the greatest harmony by such means. If you set a deputation from the Parliament of France at work with a deputation from the Parliament of England, on a consultative basis for the purpose of determining, you would set them by the ears at once. You want convenient buffers between communities which, in time of heat and fever, give time for feelings to cool. Now let us take the case of a body in which New South Wales was represented, possibly, by some person who, in New South Wales, was universally beloved, esteemed, and believed in this person in the Council becomes, probably, deservedly, utterly discredited; he makes the most foolish propositions, he is out-voted and scouted. Well, under such circumstances, feelings grow -“Oh, our man is treated in this way; that is the way a man we know to be a first-rate man is to be treated; that is the way we are treated." I only throw out such loose suggestions.
Mr. Seddon.] They are loose.
Mr. Reid.] Well, take the House of Commons, for example, we do not want to imitate in our connexion with the Empire the boat that is sometimes House generated there. We do not want to see representatives to that very set on at an awkward moment, pummelling the representatives of the counties of England for a few minutes. We do not want scenes of that sort. I think the present relationship that we have may be improved upon by some scheme, but we have not yet seen it. As I say, if Mr. Seddon, in the few moments he has, can have a formulated scheme ready of a complete nature, we are all prepared to consider it; we have all longed for the result of a closer unity; we all long for that.
Mr. Kingston.] What sort of closer unity do you mean?
Mr. Reid.] We at this Board all long for that.
The Secretary of State] Are you prepared?
Mr. Reid.] I think so. I do not know anyone at the Board who is not.
Mr. Kingston.] What do you mean by "closer unity"?
Mr. Reid.] That is just the difficulty. By "closer unity" it comes to sentiment really.
Mr. Kingston.] Sentiment.
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The Secretary of State.] Are you prepared-to put an extreme case-are you prepared for a federal union, such as that of the United States of America? Mr. Seddon has spoken of representation to which I personally see no objection, in fact I should be very glad to see it, but of course he knows that with representation goes taxation.
Mr. Reid.] Of course.
The Secretary of State.] Are you prepared at the present time to be taxed by a federal council, on which you are represented according to population for Imperial purposes? If you are not, the time has not yet come for it.
We are
Mr. Reid.] That is a natural corollary; that is the most serious aspect; 1 suspect that that corollary is the most serious difficulty of all. ready to manage the Empire for you at any time, so long as you pay the piper.
Mr. Kingston.] Is Mr. Chamberlain prepared for a Federal Parliament. with two Houses, one giving equal representation to all the States independent of population?
The Secretary of State.] I should say certainly not. In the existing state of things is it conceivable' for instance, that we can allow an equal vote to Natal, with its 40,000 inhabitants, to what we with 40,000,000 of inhabitants have? I think that would be clearly impossible.
Mr. Kingston.] Better be as we are.
Sir Wilfrid Laurier.] I am quite satisfied with the condition of things as they are, but to imagine that will last for ever is a delusion. I venture from my heart to suggest that there is a good deal in representation. I conceive that it would be a good thing for the Colonies to be represented on the floor of Par- liament. It would not be impossible that the representatives of the Colonies in the Imperial Parliament should be allowed as full-fledged members of that Parliament, the right to speak and not to vote, as is the case in America, where the representatives of certain territories have the right to speak, but not to vote. They are enabled in this way to bring matters which concern them to the attention of the public, and to form public opinion in regard to that in that way, and they are very effective in that way. Though that is practicable in America, I do not suggest anything of the kind in our case.
Sir George Turner.] Is there not a difference there, that the laws passed there affect these territories, whereas very few laws passed in the British House of Parliament affect the Colonies-very few of them, we legislate ourselves.
Sir Wilfrid Laurier.] You see the idea is a sentimental one. It has been suggested many and many a time since I have been in England that there is a great deal in sentiment a very great deal in sentiment. This is a very great thing that will have to be dealt with at no distant date, if the Colonies are to continue to be colonies.
Mr. Reid.] Under our present relation we have a weight in the country entirely beyond anything we deserve. By the proposed arrangement we would lose weight.
Sir Wilfrid Laurier.] At the present time our relations are satisfactory. Mr. Reid.] The influence of the Colonies upon public opinion in England, considering what we contribute towards the cost of the Empire, I think is marvellously out of proportion. The great test of our relations, I submit, will be the next war in which England is engaged. She is not likely ever to be engaged in an unrighteous war or in an aggressive war. If engaged in a defensive war you would find that sentiment would determine everything. Our money would come; our men would come; but you require some national emergency to show that, but it would flame out just as warmly—that feeling of patriotism, we may call it-it would flame out just as practically in the Colonies, in the hour of danger, as in England; but it is only in those 02
POLITICAL
RELATIONS.