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Mr. Reid.] In committee of supply in Australia there is an intensely critical and narrow local spirit at all times, and it is a sort of spirit you cannot get away from.
It does not perhaps fully reflect the opinion of the population, but it prevails. It is quite consistent that those very people, if war threatened, would be ready to vote any amount and go by the thousand to fight for the old country; but the Australians have two different feelings. When it comes to business he is as keen a hand as you can deal with; when it comes to the patriotism on the platform, he is most gushing, and you have to reckon with him in those two ways; but when it comes to a time of action he is up to his form, and will be ready to make good all his demonstrations of loyalty; but it is very difficult to get him to take up this partnership with the British Empire, which is a gigantic concern in view of the fact that in most Colonies their financial position, well, it has been strained, especially of late years, most of them, in fact, some of them, wealthy Colonies though they be, their finances are so strained just now that if Sir George, for instance, or Mr. Kingston, or Sir Hugh Nelson, were to propose 50,000l. as a contribu- tion towards the Imperial fleet, I bring myself, too, in with the smaller people, we should be met with a tremendous outburst, I am afraid, that would do more harm than good, that would cast a slur on the feelings which prevail.
Sir H. M. Nelson.] We will talk loyally.
Mr. Reid.] I calculate my influence in that way, and I do not think 1 could. I have a considerable influence, as we all have in our Parliaments. Mr. Kingston and I have been in some time only because we have influence with our Parliaments, and yet I believe if we did our best we would aot advance that project one inch at the present time.
Sir Wilfrid Laurier.] There are other considerations, Mr. Reid, There is the difference between the mother country and the colonies; the mother country has little to spend on public works. Her chief item of expenditure is on the army and the navy. The Colonies have an enormous amount to spend on public works for the development of their own country, building railways, harbours, and works of whatsoever kind, and you cannot look for much more than they now give. When you speak for Australia, you might speak for Canada as well.
Mr. Reid.] Indeed!
Sir George Turner.] Any sum we could give would be a mere drop in the bucket compared with the enormous expenditure.
The Secretary of State.] From our point of view it is only a question of sentiment and the establishment of a principle and laying the foundation stone. There is no importance to us in getting 120,000l. a year from Australia towards a charge of 22,000,000/. from our own resources.
Mr. Reid.] No; I think, as I think most of us must feel, that the result of an effort to extend that principle of contribution at the present time would be the reverse of what you would desire. That is my feeling.
Sir John Forrest.] I would like to say, sir, that, as far as I know, generally speaking for my own Colony, we would be quite willing to continue to con- tribute, but our difficulty is very much increased by the fact that we are told, "Why contribute? No other self-governing Colony in the Empire, except the Australian Colonies, contributes to the navy, and why should we contribute?" That is the argument which is against us. If it were done throughout the Empire, of course, it would very much strengthen and assist us; if, for instance, the great Dominion of Canada were to contribute.
Sir Wilfrid Laurier.] The geographical conditions are not at all the same. We do not feel the necessity of having a fleet to protect us
as you have. You are so isolated, and so far away, that in the case of war you have no defence at all. Canada is an inaccessible country; the only accessible way being by the St. Lawrence, and it is easily guarded.
The Secretary of State.] There is this to be said for Canada, that having Naval Depesce, a land frontier of 3,000 miles she does keep up a very large military force;
in proportion much larger than the Australian Colonies.
Sir George Turner.] Not much larger than all the Australian Colonies put together.
The Secretary of State.] I think so.
Sir George Turner.] No, I do not think so. The Secretary of State.] About 35,000.
Sir George Turner.] Take the whole forces in Australia, that is the way to compare it, and I think you will find we are not far short of Canada.
Mr. Seddon.] In New Zealand what does it cost for defence? We have borrowed money for harbour defences and defence works, half a million. There has been a further sum expended, we are paying now interest upon moneys borrowed for defence purposes, 20,0007. a year; we pay 21,000l. a year to the squadron, and we have then our defences, and they cost us 60,0001; for a population of 700,000 people we pay 100,000l. a year for defence, the native wars cost us 11,000,0007., and I say what we have done in New Zealand for its defence, and what we are doing there, is as much as they are doing in the United Kingdom or in any other Dependencies; and it should be taken as a whole, and if you take the whole and spread it over the past and present population we have, I say we are paying as much in the Colonies as they are doing in Britain for defence.
The Secretary of State.] Oh dear no; the navy alone costs us 10s. a head
of our population; the navy alone more than 10s. a head.
Mr. Seddon.] Seven shillings and sixpence.
The Secretary of State.] 22,000,000l. a year, 40,000,000.
and the population is less than
The Earl of Selborne.] The outlay on the army and navy is 40,000,0007. Mr. Reid.] But for a young Colony you can quite understand things- Mr. Kingston.] I take it, sir, there is no other part of the Empire which contributes anything towards the expense of a squadron for the protection of the floating trade of any part of the Empire?
The Earl of Selborne.] We have got the offer from the Cape. Mr. Kingston.] The offer from the Cape?
Sir Gordon Sprigg.] And I ought to say that the expense of land defence in the Cape Colony is enormously in excess of anything that is done by any Australian Colony, though with a smaller population.
Mr. Kingston.] We have the offer from the Cape, that is as far as this matter is concerned the Australian Colonies have been contributing at the rate of 126,0007. a year for the last eight or nine years, over one million pounds. Now, the suggestion is whether or not we would be prepared to consent to either one of two things-first, an alteration of the limits of the station. I have no doubt that any alteration which was necessary for preserving the trade which the fleet was intended to protect, the floating trade in Australasian waters, would be very fairly considered; but as regards the other matter of the contribution generally to the expense of the Imperial navy alone, though we in our little Colony are perfectly prepared to take our fair share of any Australian expenditure of which we approve, I do not think there would be the shadow of a chance of getting anything of the sort, and I do not think the feeling which it is desirable to encourage between the Colonies and the mother country would be increased by an attempt at anything of the sort.
Mr. Seddon.] I must correct that impression of the Secretary of State. I
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