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as well as Great Britain, or Great Britain only, because I take it that there would be a great deal of difficulty in applying the principle to all the possessions of Her Majesty, where circumstances are altogether different from those existing here. Take, for instance, those countries where labour is very cheap and the cost of production and the cost of living is very small; I do not think the Australian Colonies would be willing to give any prefer- ence to the products of those places. There is no doubt a difficulty in the way of Great Britain doing anything to assist us more than she has already done, and we fully recognise that she has opened her ports here to all our products without any duties, but, of course, we see that at the same time she does the same to other countries, foreign countries, as well as to her own Colonies; therefore, I do not know that there is anything that we should be especially grateful for in regard to her action in that matter. I can at once see that it is difficult for this country, with its large manufacturing popula- tion, to give any preference to many of the products of the Colonies. Many of the products of the Colonies are food supplies, and I do not suppose that this country could in any way take any steps that would make food dearer than it is at the present time. The general feeling that has been expressed so often in Australia during the meetings of the Federal Convention has been that so soon as we become a federated commonwealth there should be "free trade within our own borders and protection against the world." That has become a phrase. I do not quite follow you when you say that if all the Colonies were to become free trade like the mother country that all that you desire would be attained. I cannot see that if all the Colonies were free trade that would give any preference to the manufactures or the products of this country, because all other nations would have the same advantages that you would have. Perhaps I have not followed you correctly in that matter.
The Secretary of State.] I only meant to say that we believe, rightly or wrongly, that a policy of universal free trade would be immensely to the advantage of the mother country as well as of the Colonies.
Sir John Forrest.] Notwithstanding the foreign competition on equal
terms?
The Secretary of State.] In that case we ask for no preference.
Sir John Forrest.] How would it be an advantage to the mother country if all foreign countries had the same privileges
The Secretary of Stute.] Only in this way, that we believe that the Colonies would be more prosperous, and the result would be that they would do more trade with us.
Sir John Forrest.] That would not be a preference ?
The Secretary of State.] No.
Sir John Forrest.] You would have a preference the other way, that is, if we gave your goods better terms than foreign goods?
Mr. Reid.] You have. She would have to come down from her pedestal, but she is prepared to meet the world on equal ternis.
Sir John Forrest.] I do not know about that, for, if so, what is the object
of this Conference
and up, Mr. Reid.] Because if she cannot get equality the tariff will remain the next best thing to an equality of free trade is the sort of preference of paying 10 per cent, instead of 20 per cent.
Mr. Kingston.] But she is meeting the world on equal terms now. Sir John Forrest.] It seems to me that what we are discussing now is that the mother country should have some preference.
Mr. Reid.] On the existing state of things.
The Secretary of State.] Sir John was appealing to me for an explanation of my own statement on the subject. I do not know that I made myself clear.
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We would not ask
We think that free trade would be good for the Colonies. the Colonies to do anything which would be bad for them, and if, therefore, they agreed with us, and said, "Free trade is the best thing for us, and we will not, therefore, make a preference in your favour," we should certainly not put forward any claim; but if the Colonies believe, as apparently they do, and are likely to do for a long while, that protection is necessary, then certainly we should be much touched and gratified if they were of their own free will to offer us some preference.
Sir John Forrest. I cannot see that Great Britain has any disadvantage now, on account of the protective duties in the Colonies, because those protective duties are imposed upon all countries as well as herself. By the same rule I cannot see that any great advantage would come to the mother country if free trade were allowed in the Colonies unless there was some special advantage to the mother country.
Sir George Turner.] Free trade would help the mother country, because they would be able to send in their goods and compete with our manu- facturers; that is where they would get the advantage.
Sir John Forrest.] Other countries can do the same now.
Sir George Turner.] Of course.
Sir John Forrest.] And they can send in goods now in the same way as foreign countries. But, of course, present duties protect the home market to the local producers.
Sir George Turner.] Protect the home market, yes.
Sir John Forrest.] It would no doubt be a great advantage in that case. The Secretary of State.] We should expect that under a system of free trade we should send you more manufactures, and we should take from you a good deal more of your raw product.
Sir John Forrest.] Other countries would be able to compete with you on exactly the same terms as they do at the present time. The difficulty 1 see in regard to this matter is that we would be asked the question, when we moved in it, "What advantage is the Colony to derive from acceding It would be said to the proposal or the suggestion that has been made.” that we have all the advantages now of free intercourse with the mother country, and we would be asked what advantage it would be to us to give a preference to the goods of the mother country. Well, of course, we could argue sentiment, patriotism, and goodwill towards the mother
country.
Mr. Reid.] We talk it, and I do not see why we should not act it.
Sir John Forrest.] That argument should have been as strong when those duties were imposed as it is at the present time.
The Secretary of State.] I do not think the feeling was as universal then as it is now.
Sir John Forrest.] We will have to admit, I think, that in the past we have been unwise and acting badly, then.
Sir Wilfrid Laurier.] And that we have changed our opinions, and have come back now to a greater regard and respect for the mother country than
we had before.
Sir John Forrest.] In regard to the Colony I represent, I may say that our trade at present is almost altogether with the mother country. Out of the 6,000,000/. of imports last year there was only, I am glad to say, 200,000/. came from foreign countries; so that our trade, at any rate, follows the flag altogether. But I think, in a new departure like this, we should be able to say something on the other side; we should be able
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to say that Great Britain not only desires this, but is willing to give us something that we had not before if we will do something very much greater, perhaps, than she is going to do, at any rate something, because I am sure we will be met with the argument, "Why disturb matters as they exist at the present noment; what advantage will it be to us."
The Secretary of State.] Sir John, will you consider this separate question. Would you yourself be able to argue before a British audience that we ought to interfere enormously with our trade with foreign countries, which at the slight pre- present time amounts to 200,000,0007. a year in order to get a ference on a trade which you yourself say as regards Western Australia amounts to only 200,000l. a year.
Sir John Forrest.] The foreign trade, no, I do not see how you could do it.
The Secretary of State.] The only advantage we should get by any preference which you gave us would be on a trade which you say is 200,000 per annum, we should get a slight advantage in connection with that trade, and when we came to look into it we should find that a great deal of that trade you would be obliged to take from foreign countries, because it is not a trade in which we are concerned.
Sir John Forrest.] I quite agree with the difficulty, but the same difficulty would apply to us in a lesser degree. How are we to impress upon our people, to convince them that it is desirable to give a preference There is a to British products unless we can show some advantage. good deal of sentiment, but a good deal of material views as well, and the same difficulty you would have in impressing upon the people here to alter your policy, would apply in a lesser degree to us; we would be asked : Why, what is all this for; why do it now when we deliberately did not I think, as do it years ago." If we argue upon sentiment, sentimental and patriotic as anybody else. I am only pointing out the matter as it appears to me. No one is more anxious than I am myself to do anything to bring about closer relations with the mother country.
am,
Mr. Hurry Escombe.] The question immediately under consideration with me is one that is rather constitutional than commercial. I would venture to claim on behalf of the Colony of Natal that England has no constitu- tional right to enter into a treaty with a foreign power which affects a Colony without the consent of that Colony.
Sir John Forrest.] She did it long ago,
The Secretary of State.] I think those treaties were made before Natal existed as a self-governing Colony.
Mr. Harry Escombe.] I am coming to that, Mr. Chamberlain, directly, and upon that point venture to submit that if there are any treaties made before Natal existed as a separate Colony, which interfere with the power of Natal to negotiate its own fiscal policy, then I venture to submit that these treaties should be denounced, even if re-enacted the next day, with the clause in them making them affect that Colony only, which happened to approve of the treaty. But in so far as treaties are made, or may be made, to prejudice the complete freedom of action of any Colony as regards its fiscal policy, to any such treaty of that kind, I venture to submit my respectful objection. As regards the commercial aspect of the question, Natal is too small to have any great bearing on the subject in detail; and when I put it to the Prime Minister of Canada as to what we could do to help him on the lines he was following, I understood him to give me an answer in the negative.
Sir Wilfrid Laurier.] Your tariff is so low.
Mr. Harry Escombe.] Our customs are 5 per cent, the ad valorem rates, and the all-round tariff including all articles is less than 10 per cent.,
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and it would be apparent therefore that we are not in the same position as the Colonies which have got no customs duties at all or those Colonies which are entirely dependent on a high customs duty. I suppose, sir, I am
more of a free-trader than any man in the colony which I represent, and I shall therefore endeavour as far as I can to describe what I believe would be the view of the Colony on this subject rather than my own view as a free-trader. There has been a great deal said here to-day to which I would be wholly disinclined to give my consent, but as a representative of a Colony which has views of its own and which I am supposed to understand, I rather wish to express what I think would be the view of the Colony than my own personal view, and I believe that in order to bring a closer union of the dependencies with the mother country, the Colony of Natal would be willing to do one of two things, either to reduce its present customs duties, low though they may be in favour of the mother country and in favour of the dependencies of the mother country, or to raise the customs duties as against foreign powers that would otherwise compete with England; and in saying this I want to make my meaning perfectly clear, that I believe this to be a violation of an underlying principle of free trade, because in so far as it could destroy the effect of foreign competition on the English manufactures the Colony has got to pay directly or indirectly for the effect of that destruc- tion. This, of course, it is for the Colonies themselves to say, but I believe this honestly, that the Colony for which I am now speaking would favour either of the propositions to which I have endeavoured to give expression, but at the same time I would ask permission to say it seems to me we are beginning almost at the wrong end; that the first thing to do is to get co-terminous countries-co-terminous Colonies-into agreement one with the other, and when you have got co-terminous Colonies more into agreement, then you will be able to hit on a general fiscal policy with greater case than at the present moment; and as far as we are concerned, a matter of far more importance to us than that under consideration is that of our relations with the Colony represented by Sir Gordon Sprigg, and in South Africa we think a great deal more of the free interchange of colonial produce between the Cape Colony and Natal than of the subject under consideration. I have endeavoured to express the opinions of my Colony.
Mr. Seddon.] There is one point, probably, we should not lose sight of, and that is this, it will come up later on in the heading of defence. There will no doubt be an increased trade with the Colonies under the circumstances which have arisen, and that will involve an increased expenditure on defence, and that is a concession and an advantage they will all receive and do receive from, the mother country, and which should be borne in mind in connection with what has been said by Sir John Forrest. What can we say has been done in return? I say that question of the defence and the increased commerce must be borne in mind. The increased commerce would entail an additional expenditure on the mother country.
The Secretary of State.] I am very anxious to have the results of this discussion formulated in the form of resolutions, which will be much more convenient when I shall have to deal with them, when I come to submit them
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to my colleagues, and when afterwards they are submitted to Parliament, and I have drawn up two resolutions. I think that they embody the general opinion. The first resolution is this. It is in two parts. The first part is: That the Premiers of the self-governing Colonies unanimously and earnestly recommend the denunciation at the earliest convenient time, of the Belgian and German Treaties, which now hamper the commercial relations As far as I understand, that is a between Great Britain and her Colonies." unanimous expression of opinion. Then I proceed. I will read the rest of the resolution. "In the event of such denunciation the Premiers of Victoria, New Zealand, Cape Colony, Queensland, Tasmania, West Australia, and Natal would favourably consider proposals for giving a preference to the products of Great Britain."
Mr. Reid.] The first part of the Resolution takes a form which does not commend itself to me. We would prefer it without such a pointed
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