37
PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE
19
Reference :-
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ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC-İ
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Mr. Jones-continued.
180
Mr. REEVES.
1 could the special reasons which make us desire to sec the line all British. There is not only the general sentiment, as I said, but there is the special reason that the alternative of not making it British would involve either using the French line, which, for other reasons that I tried to give, we do not want, or in falling into the hands of the Americans at Hawaii, which, for easons I tried to give, we do not want either.
Sir Saul Samuel.
2830. You were in Sydney, I believe, at the Conference recently held there?—Yes.
2831. Was the route mentioned in the proceed ings of the Conference held in Sydney, the one I allude agreed to while you were present. to the route from Queensland to Norfolk Island, then bifurcating to New Zealand and Fiji?Most distinctly 80. Subject to correction, my memory is that Mr. Thynne, the Queensland delegate, appeared to favour a direct route from Fiji to Queensland; I think from Fiji. I, of course, as the New Zealand delegate, very strongly objected to that, and wanted the Con- ference to remain in the position which they had
[Continued.
2 December 1896.]
Sir Saul Samuel-continued. taken up a year before at Wellington, namely, that the route would go from Fiji to New Zealand, and from New Zealand to Australin. Then there was, as it were, one proposed line there and another line here. Mr. Cook, of New South Wales, proposed a compromise by which, in between the two, a line could come to Norfolk Island and bifurcate from there.
2832. But as a fact the Conference adopted this route? We adopted it unanimously.
2833. I thought you were not a consenting I thought you had no instructions?—No; party; I think, if I remember correctly, I did assent to Govern- it, and I subsequently telegraphed to my ment to feel quite sure about it, and I received a message from Mr. Ward (I do not know whether it has ever been made public) to the effect that the Norfolk Island route would do not badly from the New Zealand point of view.
2834. Then, in point of fact, this route, so far as the colonies are concerned, was adopted at that Conference?—Yes.
2835. I understand you that you do not object to that route? I do not object to it, air.
The Witness withdrew.
Mr. W. H. MERCER, the Secretary to the Committee; Examined.
Chairman.
2836. MR. MERCER, you are a clerk in the Colonial Office?-1 am.
2837. And since this proposal for a Pacific cable was invoted, it has been part of your duty to watch the movement ?-It has been
2838. A series of conferences has been held in the mother country and in Australia and in Canada bearing on this subject ?--Yes.
2839. Are you in a position to put in all the resolutions passed at these conferences bearing on the Pacific cable ?—Yes, I can put in a copy of the resolutions, or I can read them out now, as you prefer.
2840. I think if you put them in, in the Appendix, that will be quite sufficient?- Quite so.
2841. Can you tell the Committee the cir- cumstances of the laying of a cable to New Caledonia ? The cable was laid by direct agreement between the Governments of New South Wales and Queensland, and the French company which undertook the enterprise. This office was not consulted in the first instance, and, as a matter of fact, the Secretary of State did not hear of the matter, I believe, until the negotiations were concluded. In 1893 postal conference was held at Brisbane, and the debates forwarded to the at that conference Marquess of Ripon. In commenting upon them his Lordship stated that "Her Majesty's Govern- "ment cannot but_view with regret the action "taken by the Governments of Queensland
were
Chairman-continued.
"and New South Wales, as it implies a departure from principles with regard to "colonial cohesion and the consideration of Imperial interests to which prominence was "given in the Colonial Conference of 1887, and "as it appears, diminishes the chance of their "assistance in laying any Pacific cable, passing
LU
through British possessions or protected terri- tory, and avoiding the possessions of European "Powers. Her Majesty's Government share "the views expressed by the Victorian Govern- "ment that inconvenience, loss, and, indeed,
EX
66
danger to both colonial and Imperial interests might arise in time of war if the Pacific cable passed through New Caledonia, and they can- "not, from an Imperial point of view, regard "with approval an arrangement under which "such cable would touch foreign territory."
2842. What was the actual nature of the South Wales and arrangement that New Queensland entered into with the French Government?-I have not got before me the text of the arrangement.
2843. You can put that in? — I can put
it in.
2844. Do you know what the amount of the subsidy they give is?—They each guaranteed to the cable company one-sixth of a revenue of 12,0001. a year.
2845. And do you know when it expires ?- The guarantee is for 30 years.
2846. Is that also in the arrangement ?—Yes.
181
Mr. MERCER.
Chairman-continued, 2847. Is there any document which you can put in, giving the latest information as regards the position of the British Government or of any private company towards acquiring landing- rights in the Sandwich Islands ?—I could state briefly, or put in a statement, as to what has actually happened in the United States Legis- lature, with regard to the proposals which have been laid before it. I such a statement is desired, I could make it and put it into the Appendix.
Can you
2848. If you please, will you do so? tell the Committee what projects for a Pacific laid cable have been mooted in America, and before Congress ?—Yes. In the spring of the present year the Committee on Foreign Relations of the Senate of the United States considered two Bills for the establishment of a cable to
Honolulu, and thence to Japan. In estimating whether a subsidy of 160,000 dollars a year for 20 years was reasonable, they found that the cost of the cable to Honolulu (2,433 miles), laid and in a condition to be operated, would be at least 3,000,000 dollars; the cost of a cable steamer, fittings, &c., 400,000 dollars; the annual interest on these sums at 4 per cent. being 136,000 dollars. The maintenance of the ship, they considered, would cost 125,000 dollars a year operating expenses, 75,000 dollars; repairs, &c., 250,000 dollars; making a totalannual cost of 586,000 dollars. I may mention, perhaps, that the principal difficulty which the Committee appeared to find in the matter was to estimate the cost of repairs. They took in evidence certain cases where the repairs had taken a long time and been very costly. Thus, one of the witnesses (Mr. J. A. Scrymser) gave some infor- mation with the view of showing that 250,000 dollars was a reasonable amount to reserve for this purpose.
He said that one repair of the Direct United States Cable Company cost 58,8144; that the repair of the two interruptions experienced by the Western Union Cable Com- pany cost over 500,000 dollars, and that the
Anglo-American Telegraph Company expended 74,3607. in repairing its 1874 cable.
2849. What core did they propose to use for this cable ?-The Committee itself, as I under- stand, did not fix a specification; but a certain specification was submitted to it, which they annexed to their report. I can read out that specification; I have it here.
2850. I think if you give us the core simply that will be sufficient?-The conductor to be a strand of copper wires weighing 400 lbs. per nautical mile, or within 5 per cent. thereof.
2851. Was it stated at all what speed they expected to get out of that core, or was that subject not mentioned ?-The contract speed was to be 15 words per minute. The specification was framed, of course, with a view to that con- dition.
[Continued.
Mr. Gillies,
2852. On that cure?—Yes.
Chairman,
28.53. And was this line to stop at Honolulu, or was that only part of a project to carry the line on to Japan?-One of these two particular Bills only mentioned the project of a cable from San Francisco to Honolulu.
Mr. Jones.
2854. What distance is that?-That is 2,433 iles, but the promoters, certainly in one case, provably in both, contemplated carrying the cable further; in fact, we have reason to believe
that the promoters knew perfectly well that a cable from San Francisco to Honolulu merely would not pay, and that if they believed that they could not carry it any further they would not go to the trouble and expense of laying that section. The object was twofold, to prolong it in one direction to Japan, and probably at the same or some other time in another direction to Aus- tralia.
Chairman,
2855. Via New Caledonia or direct ?-That, of course, would be a matter for subsequent arrangement. They had not got to the point of defining the route.
2856. Nothing was said on that subject ?—I do not remember that anything was said in the Congressional debates upon that point, but no doubt the obvious course from the point of view of an American promoter would be to form an arrangement with the French Company at New Caledonia.
2857. And what is the Congressional position of these schemes now?-The position
is this, that the two Bills were considered. but the Senates Committee drew up a third Bill of its own, but I believe no progress was made with that Bill during the last Session. This was also the case with a Bill for the same object reported by a Committee of the House of Re- presentatives. The result, I believe, is eubstan- tially that; that no further legislative progress was made with the matter.
I
Mr. Gillies.
2858-9. Apropos of what youhave been saying, suppose we may presume that this is a movement that has been avowedly got up in America, with the object probably of having a line constructed to attach to the French line which is now con- nected with Australia; I suppose that is the avowed object to have a cable from Honolulu ? -Yes, I should say that is partly the object. Of course such an object might be prevented if our line were built from Canada to Australia.
Sir Saul Samuel.
2860-63. The French line has no connection with America, the line to New Caledonia ?-No.
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182