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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON
2 December 1896.]
Chairman-continued.
Mr. REEVES.
last few days cable messages to the effect that a considerable amount of Canadian flour is going to Australia at the present time, more likely to go; for the rest I know that it was the opinion of my Government that there were possibilities of trade between us and Vancouver. In fact, they laid
a commercial treaty before Parliament rather more than about a year and a-half ago, but it was not favourably received owing, I think, to the fact that the proposal was entirely novel, and that there was a feeling that the Bill had been hastily drawn up, perhaps on insufficient data. But it would appear that the New Zen- land Government has not abandoned the notion, because here is a Bill of this Session, called "The Customs Duty Reciprocity Act Exten- "gion." It is so entirely technical that, taken by itself it is incomprehensible, but read with the principal Act of which it is an amend- ment it means this, that the Government of New Zealand is to have power to enter into reciprocal commercial arrangements, not only with Australian colonies, which we already have got as far as our own Parliament can give it to us, but with any other part of the country. That, I take it (I am only giving you my own private opinion) can have but one meaning, that is, to give our Government power to make a commercial arrangement with Canada if it wishes to.
one.
2807. And is there any wool trade between Australia and the States ?-Yes, some, but, if I remember correctly, it has not ever been a large Our wool, of course, comes here. We are not very sanguine, at least I am not, about wool trade between the United States and the colonies if the Republican party remains in power; at the same time, no one can tell.
2808. Assuming this cable to be laid and to be owned by the associated Governments, have you any observations to make on the question of tariff? Would you consider that the question of tariff really should be regarded, nt first at any rate, solely from the question of revenue?—It is quite obvious that the thing must be made to pay if possible. I do not think that, unless you could lay a scheme with such a scale of charges
that there would be no heavy contribution to be expected, unless you could do that and lay it before the Empire, I should think that consider- able opposition may be expected. But I am only giving you my private opinion.
Chairman-continued.
[Continued.
for what is known as slack in connection with telegraph ocean tables. The expert opinion that I can remember as given to us in Sydney, was that that was quite excessive and that an allow- ance of 10 per cent. for slack would be ample, In fact, I believe that the allowance for slack between New Caledonia and Queensland is about 5 per cent.
2809. Have you any observation you wish to make about the position of the Eastern Telegraph Extension Company, or have you said as much as you wish with regard to that subject?-I think there can be no doubt that it would involve a loss of revenue, and a considerable loss of revenue. I can only speak from memory of what one went into a year or two ago about it. I should not be at all astonished if the Eastern Telegraph Exten- sion Company lost 70,000% or 80,000l. a year reve- nue overit; I do not know what they think. There was just one point, by the way, on which some stress was laid by experts in Sydney last January. Mr. Fleming had, in some estimate that he had laid before the Governments, estimated that something like 20 per cent. would be required
Mr. Murray.
2810. Apart from the fact that the cable between New Zealand and Australia is in private hands, why is your Government so anxious for an independent outlet? For the reasons that I think I gave, that we should like to have direct cable communication with America, especially by way of Vancouver. That, of course, would put us in direct touch by a direct cable with the continent of America, because we wish to have another outlet to the world, and for the no doubt very important reason that at the present time we are entirely at the mercy of une company and one route, though not a single line.
2811. When you eay you are at the mercy of at your the company, they are in some sense mercy? Well, you can put it in that way, cer- tainly. It is their interest, of course, to treat us fairly well, but at the same time the cable is theirs, and we must use it.
2812. But would the route by Norfolk Island from Vancouver and Fiji be very much more direct for your purpose than a route to Australia and thence to New Zealand; I mean would you be very much better off by the in- creased directness ?-I do not quite follow you. What I meant to express was this, that at the present time from Wakapuaka, or shall I say from Wellington to Australia there is this one route, duplicate line; if, of course, we have a route from Auckland or the North Cape to Norfolk Island, and from Norfolk Island to Queensland, we shall then have not only the one line of communication with Australia which we now have under the control of the one company, but we shall have an entirely different line alto- gether in the control of the Governments.
2813. No doubt you will have two lines instead of one, but in point of directness will you gain very much? Oh, no, we shall not gain at all With us it except as regards Queensland.
would be rather the other way, but we are not thinking of that. But then there is another point, from Norfolk Island there comes the line to Fiji, and from Fiji to North America; that, of course, would be a still greater gain.
2814. Would it be so much greater gain?--
I may say, that Well, yes, our people think so. even the communication with Fiji is important to We have a considerable trade with the South Pacific Islands already, which we are very anxious to increase.
us.
2815. But do you want a direct cable to Fiji for that purpose?-Not alone for that purpose, and I do not suppose that if there was no other a Pacific cable we purpose to be served by should seriously consider it, but I mention it as an auxiliary to my reason.
2 December 1896.]
Mr. REEVES.
Mr. Murray-continued. 2816. In what direction is your trade develop ing most: Europe, Canada, or the United States? Oh, our trade is with England mainly. I should say that 75 per cent. of the outward trade of New Zealand is with the mother country. or through the mother country.
2817. And the steamship connection which you now have with Canada, has that affected your trade very much ?-You can scarcely say that we have a steamship communication with Canada; in fact Mr. Huddart is only just now beginning this route between Vancouver and New Zealand. At the present time, you know, the steamer communication with Canada is be- tween New South Wales and Canada, as Sir Saul Samuel is aware.
2818. And they do not come to you at all?-- Oh, no; but they are coming.
ments.
2819. And your trade to San Francisco, is that growing-Well you see our trade with America has never been much. We have always imported certain things from America, machinery and so forth, agricultural imple- Ultimately, indirectly I believe, we do send a fair amount of wool to America, but not by any means all direct. Then, of course, sometimes I have known such a thing as wood or flour coming from America to New Zealand, but that was an abnormal thing, and must be extremely rare, because we export wood and Hour ourselves.
2820. Then you support this cable rather as a means of affording you an alternative route to Europe, than a connection with Canada and America? Not entirely, because, as I tell you, my Government, rightly or wrongly, believe that there will be trade between us and the Canadian Dominion as time goes on. There are two or three things that have been mentioned as things likely to develope trade. I am afraid that in ten or a dozen years, extra- ordinary as it may seem, we may be importing timber from the Dominion, our forests are being destroyed so rapidly.
Mr. Jones.
2821. You mentioned that the telegraphic expenditure or receipts of New Zealand have reached 100,0001, I understood you? Well, of course. the revenue of the department is really larger; quoted what is simply put down as telegraphic revenue in that.
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2822. In the event of the Pacific cable being laid, what portion of that would you estimate, as a fair assumption, would come over the Pacific cable, instead of going the other way? In that figure I gave you, I tried to make myself clear; I was simply referring to the whole telegraphic business of New Zealand, external and internal. I put in another return showing our external business, which, of course, is considerably smaller. I will, if you like, say it is less than 40,0001. there is there.
2823. Is it in that Table?—Yes, it is in the Table I have put in. I believe an estimate has been given that something like one-third of the
SO
[Continued
On the
Mr. Jones-continued. existing business would be diverted to the Pacific route, and that a certain amount of new business would spring up. I should see no reason to think that one-third of the exist- ing business is a high proportion. contrary, so far as New Zealand is concerned, I should say it would be a low proportion, very low, but
much depends upon what you are going to charge. If the tariff by the new route, of course, is appreciably lower than the existing tariff, even if you assume that the Eastern Company at once follows suit and lowers to the new tariff, you may assume that there will be an increase of business because of the lower tariff. Experience has shown that, although people are often disappointed in the amount of the increase, still the lowering of prices always does lead to some increase.
2824. That is generally the natural result?— Yes.
2825. You spoke of the facility or rapidity of communication, supposing you were connected with Fiji. Would not, the communication viá Vancouver be more expeditious than by the present existing lines, I mean even with England? Vid Vancouver? Well, as regards that, that is a question for telegraphic experts to cal- culate the difference between sending wire from Auckland to London via Vancouver and sending it via Australia; I am not in a position to speak as an expert.
Sir Saul Samuel.
2826. You have a considerable trade with Fiji, I think?-Oh, yes; as regards our connec- tion with Fiji, I say we shall be very glad to get that, Sir Saul, for its own sake; but I do not mean to suggest that our island trade is of such magnitude as to warrant us in plunging into the Pacific cable for that reason alone.
Mr. Jones.
2827. Would it make any difference to that island were you connected with Fiji via Australia, or direct, because there are two means of con- nection suggested, one is from Fiji to Norfolk which is 1,022 miles, Norfolk to New Zealand, 400, and Norfolk to Australia, 760, 2,190 miles, whereas Fiji to New Zealand, and New Zealand to Australia is 2,183. It is about the same thing. I suppose either mode of connection would suit you? Perfectly; so far as Fiji is concerned, per- fectly; it matters next to nothing to us certainly, as far as sending a wire is concerned, whether it goes round by Norfolk Island or direct across the ocean; it is a matter of indifference; it is a matter for experts as to the difference between cost of laying the respective lines.
2828. You look upon this then as very im- portant from a national point of view, independent of the commercial? - Of course we do.
another country by a cable over British ways 2829. The idea of being connected with entirely in contra-distinction to the existing lines? Yes. I have given the reasons as far as
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