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30 November 1896.]
Chairman-continued.
Mr. LAMB.
2408. Is the Commercial Cable Company a foreign company?-Certainly.
2409. And by what route would messages come from Canso; would they pass through British territory or United States territory - Through British territory the whole way; and in the hands of the Pacific Railway Com-
pany.
Sir Donald Smith.
2410. Is not the stock of the Commercial Cable Company hell very largely in England? -I have no doubt that it is.
2411. Upwards of 1,000,000%. ?— I cannot answer that, sir, I do not know exact particu
lars.
2412. Are not the directors; a certain num- ber of the directors of the Commercial Cable, British subjects?-1 believe that is so.
2413. Still, you would regard it as a foreign company?-Decidedly.
2414. More so than the other Atlantic cable companies? It is not a question of degree when you compare it with the Anglo-American Telegraph Company and the Direct United States; it is foreign, and they are British; but if you compare it with the Western Union then I should say it was, equally, not more so, but equally, foreign.
2415. The Anglo-American is then an English company?-Certainly.
2416. Not a foreign-No; and the Direct United States is an English company.
Mr. Jones.
2417. Then you have two English companies? -Two English and two foreign.
2418. Allowing the Commercial to be foreign? -Yes.
Sir Donald Smith.
in
2419. Owned in England, and with a direction in England; those two companies?—I am afraid I cannot give you information as to exactly the holding of shares in any of the companies; they vary. From time to time Englishmen buy in American companies; they buy shares American railways, and foreigners buy shares in English undertakings; but there can be no doubt that the Commercial Cable Company is equally a foreign company with the Western Union Telegraph Company.
2420. While the others are not ?-The other companies whose cables cross the Atlantic are not foreign; they are British.
Mr. Jones.
2421. Managed by British ?-And managed by British people.
2422. Under British control ?-Under British control. With their offices here under British law; they are subject to British law.
2423. Is not the Commercial Cable the same? -Not in its management. In any of its acts, I suppose, in England it would be subject to British law; but in its management it
is not subject to British law. It is a company
Mr. Jones-continued.
[Continued.
registered in America and governed and managed entirely under the laws of the United States.
Sir Donald Smith,
2424. Does the fact of its capital, or, at least, a very large portion of it, having been issued in England, and taken up in England, and by British subjects, not place it under British law certain extent?—Nop in that sense; its nationality is distinctly Anierican.
Mr. Jones.
to
2425. You mean to say,
I uderstand, that English lawThe Anglo-American Telegraph the two companies are incorporated under the Company, and the Direct United States Tele- graph Company are, I am not sure whether they have charters of incorporation, but they are established.
2426. They must have an Act of Incorporation somewhere -Not an Act of Parliament, 2427. No, under letters patent?——
Sir Donald Smith,
2428. Joint Stock Companies —Yea, and they are purely British.
2429. Purely British, and the Commercial Cable is not?—The Commercial Cable is not; and the Western Union Telegraph Company of
America is not.
2430. The Western Union is a different thing, that is an organisation in the States exclusively ?—No, pardon me, the Western Union Telegraph Company, just like the Com. mercial Cable Company, has cables across the Atlantic which land in this country and are worked in this country.
2431. Quite so; and they lease the line through Canada; but then they have no standing as an incorporated company in England?-Nor has the Commercial.
2432. Has it not?—No, absolutely none.
Chairman.
2433. Then do I understand that the only method by which a cable can be sent for a cer- tainty entirely through British hands, would be that it should cross the Atlantic on the Anglo- American Company's lines, and then pass to the Canadian Pacific ?-Or by the Direct United Stater Co.
2434. Or by the Direct United States, and then pass to the Canadian Pacific ?—Yes.
Sir Donald Smith.
2435. Would not the message be for a certain length of time in the hands of the Western Union Company, on their own or on their leased lines? No, I understand that the Canadian Pacific Railway Company has a terminus of its telegraph lines at Canso and another one at Halifax. I say this subject to correction.
Mr. Jones.
2436. Yes, that is so. That is so. Then in that case the Anglo-American Telegraph Com
30 November 196.]
Mr. Jones-contimed.
Mr. LAMB.
pany with very little trouble or expense could make a connection with Canso, and hand over messages there to the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, and the Direct United States Tele- graph Company could now, without any expense. hand over to the Canadian Pacific Railway Com- pany at 11alifax.
Chairman.
2437. Are you aware that part of the Canadian Pacific line goes through the state of Maine?—– The Canadian Pacific Railway?
2438. No, the telegraph line.
Mr. Jones. 2439. And railway too.—No, I did not know that.
Chairman.
2440. But that state of affairs could be avoided by a very small loop? I thought there was an alternative line, the Colonial Office List shows an alternative line which goes entirely clear; a telegraph line going entirely clear,
Mr. Jones.] There is. That is the Western
Union.
Sir Donald Smith, 2441. That is a line leased by the Western Union?-May I refer to the Colonial Office List, I had no business to rely on this; but that is what I did rely on. This seems to show a line of the Pacific Railway which goes through New Brunswick without touching Maine.
Chairman.
2442. If it does go through Maine, as I believe it does, it could easily be avoided by small loops --Uh, yes.
2443. I suppose the evidence you have given on this subject applies entirely to unrouted telegrams; that is to say, that a routed telegram will go practically by any route that the sender chooses? Well, I am not sure that that is 50. My information is that the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, no matter how a message is
Chairman-continued.
[Continued.
directed, hands it, as a matter of course, to the Commercial Cable Company; therefore, what- ever we could do in the outward direction from England I am told that the arrangements between the Pacific Railway Company and the Commercial Cable Company require that the Railway Company should hand to the Cable Company all the messages, and I believe the same arrangement holds good with the Western Union Telegraph Company. I believe that in the States, for instance, if you handed a message to the Western Union Telegraph Company and ordered it to be sent across the Atlantic by the French Telegraph Company or by the Commercial Cable Company, they would disregard your order and send it either by their own cable or by the Anglo, or by the Direct United States.
2444. In fact, that there is no real distinction in the practical working between routed and un- routed telegrams ?--In the direction from America I believe there is no distinction.
2445. Have you ever considered if such a cable as the Pacific cable were made what form of contract should be offered to tenderers ?-1 think it would depend on whether you were going to order the cable for the Government, or going to ask a company to lay the cable under Govern- ment subsidy or guarantee.
2446. I am assuming that the Government were going to own the cable themselves. If the Government were going to own the cable I think they ought to make up their minds as to the type of cable they require, and every other condition, and they ought to specify definitely that they want a cable of a particular type with a particular weight of copper, and with a par- ticular quality of material.
2447. Could you furnish us with a specimen of a contract, the points of course being all left in blank-I could give you at once one of our forms of contract for an ordinary cable.
2448. And that would apply mutatis mutandis to a contract for a Pacific cable?—I should
think, speaking generally, it would; it would require careful revision.
2449. Would you mind looking at that at your leisure and sending in what would do, quite as a blank form, please?-Certainly.
The Witness withdrew,
Adjourned till To-morrow, at Half-past Eleven.
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