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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE
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Reference :-
C.O. 885
6
ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC-
COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO
PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON
NINTH DAY.
MONDAY, 30TH NOVEMBER 1896.
PRESENT:
THE RIGHT HONOURABLE THE EARL OF SELBORNE, CHAIRMAN, Presiding.
The Hon. Sir DONALD SMITH, G.C.M.G. The Hon. Sir SAUL SAMUEL, K.C.M.G., C. B. The Hon. D. GILLIES.
The lon. A. G. JONES, I.C.
Mr. G. H. MURRAY, C.B.
Mr. W. H. MERCER, Secretary.
Mr. JOHN CAMERON LAMB, C.B., C.M.G., Third Secretary of the General Post Office, called in; and Examined.
Chairman.
2191. MR. LAMB, I think you are Third Secretary of the General Post Office?—Yes,
2192. And you have been in charge of the Telegraph Department since April 1889 ?—Yes, that is so.
2193. In the course of your duty have you had to consider the question of the Pacific Cable at all? Yes, I have had to do so on several occasions as adviser of the Postmaster General.
A
Chairman-continued.
interrupted at the same time?—I cannot recall any instance in recent times.
2198. What is the greatest number that you have ever known interrupted simultaneously? -- Well, on that occasion there were three cables interrupted.
2199. There were three?—And I think that those three were the cables between Java and Australia.
Mr. Murray,
2200. That is submarine interruptions, not on the landlines --There has never been a total in- terruption of any kind on the normal route since July 1890. Messages, I mean to say, have been transmitted uninterruptedly since that date by the normal route.
2194. Now can you tell the Committee what the existing lines to Australia are ?—If we take a What may be map I think we shall see it best. called the normal route to Australia is by Lisbon, Gibraltar, Malta, Alexandria, Port Said, Suez, Aden, Bombay, Madras, Penang, Singapore, Banjuwangi, then either Port Darwin or Roe- buck Bay. Another route would be through France to Marseilles, then to Bona in Algeria, then to Malta, and then on the same way. still further route would be by the Indo- European Telegraph line through Germany, Russia, Telieran, then to Bushire, Kurachi, then over the land system of India to Bombay and Madras, and then on by the same route as before. A circuitous route, or what the French call a voie détournée, would be by Lisbon, Madeira, Cape de Verde Islands, the west coast of Africa to the Cape, the east coast of Africa to Aden, and then on to Bombay, &c., aa before. Another voie détournée would be through Scandinavia, Russia, China, and then by the Eastern Exten- sion Telegraph Company's system vid Hong-Yes. Kong, Labuan, Singapore, and then on as before.
I think those are all the possible routes.
2195. Does any one of those five routes touch only on British territory ?-No, not one.
2196. Is the present service much liable to interruption ?--I think not. The last occasion on which it was interrupted, that is, wholly in- terrupted (and I am now only speaking of the normal route), was July 1890, and then it was interrupted for 10 days,
2197. Have you ever known all the five routes
Sir Sand Samuel,
2201. You are not speaking of the land line, I suppose I am speaking of the communication with Australia, but how far the land lines in Australia were interrupted-
2202. Well, I mean the land line in Australia. -I am afraid I cannot give evidence on that; I only know that Australia has been reached uninterruptedly since July 1890.
Mr. Murray.
2203. That is Port Darwin, or Roebuck Bay?
Chairman.
2204. One of the questions referred to this Committee is, assuming that the Pacific Cable be laid, should the cable be owned or worked by Government or by a subsidised private company; can you offer any opinion on the question of Government ownership?-In the event of the Government purchasing the cable, or owning the lower cable, I think it could be done at n price; from the point of view of economy
30 November 1896.]
Chairman-continel.
Mr. LAMB
in establishing the system, I think it is clear that the Government would be in a better posi- tion than a company, and I think probably also with regard to management as distinguished From the working. Thinking only of the manage- ment-the higher management-1 should say that probably the Government could manage cheaper.
it
2205. At what rate do you suppose the asso iated Clovernments could raise the necessary money I should not suppose that they could do it at a lower rate than 3 per cent ; the Imperial Government alone might. I suppose, raise it at a lower rate, but I should say that the associated Governments could scarcely raise money for this purpose at lower rate than 3 per vent.
Mr. Jones.
2206. Not with an Imperial guarantee?- I am assuming that there is not an Imperial
guarantee.
Chairman.
2207. When I say associated Government-" I mean the Imperial Government with the Dominion and Australian Government? -Well, if the Imperial Government only joined the other Governments in the guarantee I do not think that you would get your money for less than 3 per cent.
Sir Donald Smith.
2208. Would not the security be held to be equally good by investors? I only give my opinion. There are those who have better means of judging than I have.
Sir Saul Samuel,
2209. Perhaps you are not aware that the Australian Governments, several of them, are borrowing money at 3 per cent, at the present time-They are borrowing?
2210. Yes, at 3 per cent. -Well, I think that bears ont my view, that it would be at the rate of 3 per cent. for such a purpose as this.
Sir Donald Smith.
2211. But that is without the guarantee of the Imperial Government?—C'ertainly.
2212. On their own guarantee they are borrowing at three, I understand; so is Canada, of course? I am assuming that the Imperial Government does not guarantee for the Colonies, that the Colonies take their own risk.
Chairman.
2213. Suppose that the Imperial Government alone was concerned in borrowing the money, at what price do you suppose the Imperial Govern- ment would borrow it ?-Well, at the present moment, I suppose they can borrow it at about
Chairman-contined.
[Contiuned.
2 percent, but I think it would be better to call a witness from the Treasury on that subject.
2211. 1-qquse one great advantage of raising the momy by the Governments would be that the promotion expenses would be avoided?— Yes, I think that is clear.
2215 How far do you think that the Govern- ments would be successful in collecting traffic for a line which they owned! I think that in Australasia the Eastern group of companies would employ outing agents. and that it would be difficult for the Colonial Govern- ments to compete in that way. In England the Government could not do anything to procure traffic for the new route; it must act with absolute fairness to dl companies io
except so far as it is bound by old agreements with the Anglo-American Telegraph Company. The Atlantic Telegraph Companies hire, who are in friendly relations with the Eastern group of companies, could scarcely act as touts in Eng- land for the traffic, because they would be com- peting with their friends, and when the Commercial Company acted, I think it would give rise to a certain amount of adverse comment that a com- petitive foreign company was practically acting as agent for a Guvernment line.
2216. Is there any precedent for the Imperial Government alone, or the Imperial Government associated with Colonial Government, managing and seeking business for a line of this kind?—] do not think there is. I have heard of the case of the Bahamas, but that is not a case of this kind, because it is not in competition, and there- fore there is no question of touting, or al Govern- ment interfering with private enterprise.
concerned
2217. Assuming for the sake of my question that such a line was owned by the Imperial aql Colonial Governments in partnership, would not it probably be the ease that a manager would be appointed. whose business it would be to en- deavour to collect all the traffic he could? -f suppose it would be possible for the Governments to appoint an agent, or agents, in England and other places to push the in- terests of this line. It would be possible; but the Post Office and the Government in this country, I am quite clear, could do nothing.
2218. Do you see any objection to Government ownership on any other ground? Well, your Lordship spoke of precedents a minute ago, and perhaps might to mention, before I answer your last question, what looks like a precedent, and that is the ease of the cables between England and the Continent. England and Germany, Belgium and Frauce jointly own the cables between the two countries in each case, and England owns the cables to Holland, Possibly half of those cables will be acquired by Holland, and then there will be joint ownership in all four cases: Germany, Holland, Belgium, and France, will all jointly own the cables with Great Britain; but in each one of these cases there are only two Governments concerned, It is direct relation. The cables are not in com- petition with any other cables; they are merely frontier telegraphs, like the telegraphs between Austria and Germany, only a little longer, and
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