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Chairman-continued.
100
Rear-Admiral WHARTON,
to suppose at present that they exist? No; and I would say that, so far as experience goes, the deep holes are always near land. There is no case yet of any deep hole being found in the centre of any ocean; all the deep places are near the land; so that I should not expect to find those very deep soundings on that long route.
1489. Now we pass on to the section from Fiji What would be the distance to Norfolk Island.
of that section ?-That is 879 miles.
1490. And suppose a cable to be laid from Fiji to Brisbane, what would be the length of that section?—I have not got it to Brisbane ex- actly, but to a point near.
1491. To Moreton Bay?-1,500 miles, 1492. And if it were taken straight from Fiji to New Zealand, what would that be?-That is 1,010.
1493. And what would a branch from Norfolk Island to New Zealand be, ia miles?-About 450.
1494. What indication have you as to the depth of the sea between Fiji and New Zealand and Australia, respectively-We have lines of soundings in all those directions recently ob- tained. The sea is not very deep; that is to say, it is not over-~2,600 fathoms is the deepest, and it is fairly even, as far as we can see. There are in two or three places indications of rises in the bottom; in some cases they have been worked out, and soundings obtained, so that they could be avoided; but in all these cases you would require the soundings to be a little closer before you could say positively that there are no submarine hills. That is, generally for all those lines it is quite favourable; there is no par- ticular difficulty in that section as regards depth.
1495. What is the character of the bottom? it -The character of the bottom is the same; is a soft bortom.
1496. And is that a section that is linble to volcanic disturbances?We have no evidence of it in recent years. All the little islands and reefs that exist are all volcanic, but there have been no disturbances of recent years that we know of. You see they have never localised there.
heen
1497. What sort of distance apart are the surveys which have been taken on this section— the soundings-The soundings, about 50 miles apart.
land- good 1498. Is Fiji an island on which a ing station would be easily found?—I think so, probably; I do not think there will be any difficulty there with a little search. With regard to Suva, it appears to be very fairly favourable.
1499. And Norfolk Island ?—Norfolk Island, I do not think there would be any difficulty about either. You understand that we have not got actual sections; it would require soundings to be very close in order to say exactly what the slope might be.
1500. Quite so. I might mention with regard to what you were saying just now about the volcanic disturbances, that the sudden waves that come in on the coast of Australia, and other parts, are regarded as certain evidence of
Chairman-continued,
[Continued.
submarine earthquakes, although it is only now and then that one is able to form any idea of where they originated, and these waves come in from time to time both in New Zealand, and all these islands.
1501. I think the Admiralty wrote to the Colonial Office in May 1888, pointing out that if this project were to be considered there were certain islands that ought to be secured?--Yes, that is so, and I think that every island which is there mentioned has been since annexed.
1502. Suppose this cable was determined upon -assume that what closeness of survey would you consider necessary on the route finally selected?—I should imagine that a cable com- pany would like to have soundings every 20 niles along the route. There have been so many instances of cables carried over submarine eleva- tions when the soundings have been rather far apart, resulting in the breaking of the cable and expensive repairs. I should Tagine that that is more a question really for those skilled in practical cable-laying. I can only speak from iny general knowledge.
1503. But you think that taking a sounding on the average every 20 miles, that would give a very fairly accurate idea of the character of the bottom-I make very little doubt that with the indications which you would obtain from such
out
It is soundings you would be able to hunt elevations between those two places. very rare that you do not get some indication of a rise at some distance from it; as much as 10 or 15 miles,
1504. How long has experience shown is required to take one sounding in deep water - - How long does it occupy?
1505. Yes.- At 3,000 fathoms, soundings take about two hours and a-half in our small sur- In larger vessels you can take veying vessels. them quicker. The motion of the ship is not so quick, and you can heave in quicker. Those 5,000 fathoms soundings took eight hours. They were obliged to be extremely careful in heaving up the wire. It was very near at the breaking
strain of the wire.
1506. Can the work be done all through the 24 hours?-No, you can only sound in day- light.
1507. Then what would you require in length of time to make an adequate survey of this route? Done by one of Her Majesty's survey- ing ships?
on.
1508. Yes. I think it would take three years to sound it closely. The surveying ships are small, and they are not able to face every wind, and they have to run back for coal, and so I should say that surveying ships have never yet done more than get a general indica- tion such as has been got here. The cable com- panies themselves have always re-sounded the routes closer, the route being generally deter- mined by the information that the Admiralty has been able to afford, but the Admiralty has never vessel to sounding out a line yet devoted a
Cables closely in the interests of the cable. have always been so far commercial, and that
25 November 1896.]
- not
Chairman-continued.
101
Rear-Admiral WILARTON,
13
has been left for the companies' part of the under- taking. Wherever the surveying vessels go they always get soundings; they have standing orders to that effect, and on any route they go they always get soundings, so that we gradually accumulate a large anunt of information, as we have in this route. From the Phoenix Islands to the south- ward in the past seven or eight years very large number of soundings have been
of taken
always,
A the lines of the cable that are here, because they were taken in the course of work which was wanted for the purpose of navigation, clearing up and ascertaining positions, and verifying or disproving a very large number of small langers that were scattered about those sens, which was the principal work the ship was doing ; but at the same time she obtained soundings wherever she went along in any direction.
course,
1509. Do you think the vessels of the cable company would take the necessary survey in a shorter time than that? Oh, yes, they would; but they carry more coal. They are powerful, and they can sound quicker.
more
1510. I may say I have a letter here from Mr. Taylor, belonging to a firm of submarine engineers, whose business it is not to make or lay cables, but to watch the making of cables from the point of view of the purchasers, and he has accompanied many of these cable ships, and his estimate, which he has revised and sent
to me now, is that the route could be surveyed in 200 days?-Does he say how close the sound- ings are to be?
1511. I am quite sure he did not say more than 20 miles; I think it was less, I think it was 15. Does this seem to you too short au estimate? Yes, it is certainly, because 1 anticipate that from time to time you would require to get a great many soundings to aseer- tain whether any indication that you had received was that of a serious rise in the bottom or only an insignificant elevation that the cable could pass over safely. There would be a good deal of time taken finding out, like these soundings on the line between Fiji and New Zealand, where there were several indications, and four or five days were spent round each of those to ascertain if there was anything shallower there.
1512. Can you give the Committee any esti- mate as to the cost of such a survey?-The cost of one of the surveying vessels is about 12,000. a year.
1513. Supposing-assuming always that this enterprise was practically taken in hand-would you recommend that the survey should be on- trusted to Her Majesty's navy, or that the contractor should carry out the survey under proper supervision?--I should certainly not recommend its being done by one of the ships of the navy, for the reason that there are few sur-' veying vessels, and we have an enormous amount to do in the way of surveying for navigation purposes that only a surveying ship can do, whereas the deep soundings, as I say, can be done quicker and more readily by the cable-ships that are fitted up for the purpose.
Chairman-continued.
[Continued
1514. In fact, that the navy are not provided with such perfect appliances, or ships so well furnished for this particular purpose, as those whose business it is to do it and nothing else? - Yes; that is so, and besides, the reason that they are wanted for other purposes. That is the thing.
Sir Saul Samuel.
-1515. At the conference held in Sydney, very recently, of the representatives of all the colonies upon this question of the construction of the Pacific cable, a resolution was passed to this effect:-"That they desired the following route, "commencing at Vancouver Island, the cable to extend to Fanning Island, then to some suitable island in the Fiji group. From Fiji to Norfolk Island, and at that point the route can set back "to the northern part of New Zealand and to a convenient point between the boundary of New "South Wales and Queensland." Now is there any objection to that route? It is a route asked by the Colonies themselves or by their represen- tatives. It is practically the same route that I conceived would be the only one, if decided to call only at islands possessed by England.
Sir Donald Smith.
1516. Is anything known of the relative tem- perature in the Atlantic and in the Pacific at great depths!-Yes, the temperature is practi- eally the same within three or four degrees at such depths. It is very nearly the same.
1517. So that there is not any such difference of temperature as would affect a cable in the Pacific more than in the Atlantic ?—No; I should say that there is no difference as regards that
point.
Mr. Jones,
1518. You said, I think, that soundings in the South Pacific revealed a depth of 5,000 fathoms in some places?—Yes,
1519. Was that on what is known as the Fanning route ---No, it is a long way from the route of this cable.
1520. A long way? It is nearer New Zea land.
1521. What was the deepest water known between Australia and New Zealand ?--I think 2,900 fathoms is about the deepest sounding that has been obtained as yet.
1522. And between New Zealand and Fiji ? Between New Zealand and Fiji it is about 2,400–2,500, we will say.
1523. And between Fanning Island and Van- It couver-There we have little information. is about 3,000 3,100,
1524. Could you give the Committee an idea of how many soundings a well-equipped ship for that purpose could take in a working day, how many soundings she could take in a day?—I do not think she could get more than five at the a distance of 20 miles apart each. outside, going That is the very best. Supposing the sound-
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Mr. Jones-continued.
102
Rear-Admiral WHARTON.
ings to be deep, the time increases in a greater proportion than the depth.
Mr. Murray.
1525. Assuming that this cable was to become the property of the Government, do you think it would still be safe to leave the actual survey in the hands of the contractors; their interests in the long run, you will observe, are not quite the same as those of the ultimate proprietors of the cable?—No, but I think it would be perfectly safe. None of the great English companies would scamp their work in that way for their own sakes they would not allow the cable to break immediately after they had laid it.
1526. No, they would probably undertake to keep it for perhaps three years?—Yes.
1527. But it is quite conceivable that a survey which was good enough for that might cause the cable to break down in seven or eight years?... I should hardly think that. If the arrange- ments were made to be so many soundings in the hundred miles, I cannot see that it would not be carried out.
1528. No doubt; but would so many soundings in the hundred miles be enough to secure such a knowledge of the bottom as would be required to keep a cable sound for, say, 20 years?-1 think so.
There have been no case of soundings closer than that, except, as I say, around spots No cable where there are indications of rises. has ever been laid where the soundings have been thicker than that.
1529. No existing cable No.
1530. About 20 miles?—Yes, about that on the average--perhaps a little less.
1531. You would expect a much closer survey to be made between Fanning and Australia than would be necessary between Fanning and Vancouver, for instance ?-1 should, because I think that the bottom there is very much more unequal; you would find it necessary.
1532. And you could not infer so easily in that neighbourhood that 20-mile soundings, for instance, would answer your purpose-No; I should expert to have soundings closer than 20 miles there.
1533. Probably very much closer?--Probably very much closer. If you would like to see a chart of Fanning and Palmyra.---Chart pro- duced.)
are
1534. Is Fauning a coral island? – They The lagoon both coral islands, yes.
This is too shallow, unfortunately, to get into.
Unfor- (indicating on chart) is the lagoon here. tunately it is all filled up with coral. This is a rough survey. This is the entrance, and the tide runs 80 extremely strong here, although the ship is nicely sheltered, that it is a very inconvenient place to lie at This lagoon has to be emptied ont and filled every tile, so there is a tremendous rush of water there.
Sir Sand Samuel,
1535. Would a line in the Pacific such as is proposed be less liable to interruption from volcanic action than the lines of the Eastern Extension Telegraph Company?—From volcanic
[Continued.
Sir Saul Samuel-continued, action? No; I should say it would be about
the samé.
1536. About the same?-But I do not think anybody can answer that question definitely.
1537. But the Eastern Company's cables have heen interrupted by volcanic action?—Oh, yes, off and on, three or four times.
Sir Donald Sngth,
1538. There is no data enabling you to judge or to give 211 opinion? No we know there is volcanic action in the sea at both places; that is all I can say.
Mr. Murray.
1539. It is not very steep. Fanning, is it? We do not know.
1540. How far out does this (the chart) go? - This is inside, you see, this is a large scale. That (indicating) is the outside, and there are no soundings beyond that.
1541. Is that fathoms ?-Those are fathoms, ves. And this is Palmyra (indicating chart), There is a large plateau outside here; we do not know what the steepness of that plateau is. In the course of this next year I hope both these islands will be examined, as a surveying ship has been ordered there, and they will be closely examined for the slopes.
Chairman.
1542. What is the distance between Fanning Island and Palmyra?-Between Fanning and Palmyra, about 230 miles; but i gave you the distance from Vancouver before, and they are nearly the same. Palmyra is more in a straight line than Fanning.
Mr. Jones.
1543. Have you any doubts as to the prac- ticability of the undertaking? I do not know that you have expressed any opinion upon that? -Oh, there is no difficulty in laying a cable in the water you are likely to get there at all. course, when you come to repairs it is another matter. The deeper the water the more expen- sive to repair.
Of
1544. But as to the undertaking itself on the routes from Vancouver to Fanning and to Fiji, and Norfolk Island, and New Zealand; you think that that is a practical route to be worked ?—I am afraid there would be very great difficulties in the landing-places in those coral islands. It remains to be seen what the slopes at Fanning and Palmyra are; but I should very much doubt if the cable can be laid in the Phoenix Islands without a great deal of expense, the slope is so extremely steep.
Chairman.
1545. On that question of surveying, you have expressed an opinion to Mr. Murray that a thoroughly well-known firm of contractors can he trusted with it. There would be no difficulty, would there, in putting some representative of the Imperial and Colonial Governments on board
25 November 1896.]
Chairman-continued,
103
Rear-Admiral WHARTON,
the ship to see that the work was properly done?
-1 should imagine not.
1546. And it could easily be part of the con- tract that the survey should be one that thoroughly satisfied the Governments concerned, and they were not to take the survey for granted nerely on the word of the contractors?—Yes, that could be done.
Sir Donald Smith.
1547. To lay the cable by way of Norfolk Island rather than Canton No, those are not alternatives; they are about 2,000 miles apart Norfolk Island is between Fiji. This line from Fiji direct to Australia does not touch at Norfolk Island.
1548. It does not ?—No.
1549. Then that would shorten it very con- siderably-It would shorten it about a couple of hundred miles, I should think.
1550. But the object of going to Norfolk Island is that you are nearer to New Zealand for a line there. is it?—I do not know what the object of going to Norfolk Island is.
Mr. Gillies,
1551. The object of going to Norfolk Island ; the suggestion of the Governments was that they might bifurcate from Norfolk Island to New Zealand, and from Norfolk Island close to New South Wales --Oh, yes, that could be done, of
course.
Mr. Jones.
1552. Where is that island in place of Fauning?-Here (indicating),
:
1553. Where is the other island you spoke of? Indicating.) Palmyra is there, and Fanning is there that is more a direct line. It remains to I will be seen it would have to be examined. leave these charts; that one would be useful, and that one shows the present state of the soundings.
Chairman,
1554. There is one further question, and that is
You said about the length of survey.
you thought it might take three years, but you also said, later on, that you thought that probably a properly-equipped ship might cover five soundings a day, of 20 miles apart ?—Yes.
1
1555. Therefore she would cover 100 miles I think, perhaps, I put day Possibly, yes. that a little too high; but I was speaking of what might be done with faster ships.
Chairman-continued.
[Continued.
1556. Presuming she did cover 100 a day on the average, it would not take very long to cover the 3,000 miles? She has to go back to coal somewhere, and there is weather, and there are very often days when you cannot sound at all. I was only speaking of favourable circum- stances; you could not take that as an average of the whole route.
1557. Do you not think that a properly- equipped ship could do the work in the time during which the cable is being manufactured, because that has been definitely stated to us by several people? I daresay it could.
1558. Because there is a very wide_margin? You see the place is a long way off, and the ship has to get there; I do not quite know how long they would take to manufacture 8,000
miles of cable.
1559. Putting a reasonable interpretation on your answer that their ship could do always 100 miles a day it she liked, there is a very wide margin between 100 miles a day and three years for the whole route?-I am speaking for our own vessels, three years-very small vessels. We are dependent on sails; they do not give us modern vessels for surveying vessels, and it would take a very long time to get to and fro; they could only go a short distance without having to go back for coal and start again; and they cannot steam against any head" wind. would refer to my reply above, that you cannot take 100 miles a day as an average.
Sir Donald Smith,
I
1560, I think I understood you to say that the course of soundings could not be continuous; that is, if you adopt 20 miles as the distance, they could not go on continuously throughout the whole route, but that there might be indications of rises found from those soundings which might make it necessary to go back and verify those indications ?--Oh, yes; certainly.
1561. So that it would not be a continuous survey over the distance: they would have to return it frequently to verify it?—Oh, yes. It would be useless to go straight ahead without regarding the indications that you got.
1562. And, consequently would add greatly to the length of time required? - It might; and you might he lucky enough to lay your line in be- tween any of those irregularities, so that really it is extremely difficult to give an estimate.
The Witness withdrew.
Chairman. I have received the following letter from Mr. Taylor, who gave evidence the other day : Dear Sir-With re- *ference to my evidence before the Pacific
L-
+
Cable Committee on the 23rd inst. I find that my rough estimate of the time and cost of sounding the whole of the route "for all the proposed sections of the cable "was considerably too high. I consider "that the work could be done in 200 days, including voyage out and home; also that
a suitable ship and staff could be obtained *at from 100% to 1207, a day, this making the total cost of a thorough survey, say, from 20,0007 to 24,000/ I should be obliged if you will communicate this information to the Committer and amend my evidence in accordance with it.-I am, dear Sir, yours faithfully (signed) H. A. Taylor.
Do you permit this evidence to be put in?-Agreed.
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1