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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON
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2 February, 1920.]
COLONIAL MEDICAL SERVICES COMMITTEE.
SIR JOHN ROBY BRADFORD, K.O.M.G.
2552. In the Colonies-I only know, personally, are always four Colonies--I think medical men treated quite as on an equality with other sorvants? -They do not belong to a definite Service; that is a very important point.
2553. That applies also to the Colonial Civil Ber- vice ?--Yes.
2554. Exactly the same?-Yes, but it does not apply to the Army, and it does not apply to the Indian Medical Service. It particularly does not I can only apply to the Army at the present time. speak as regards the Army for the last 10 or 12 years. During the last 10 or 12 years there has been a very great change in the kind of men that have gone into the Array, a very great change, and that change was brought about mainly by improv ing the status of the Army Medical Officer. No doubt it was brought about also, to some extent, by changes in pay; I am not in a position to speak about that; but it was mainly a question of status.
2555. Imaving status and going to the emoluments, what salary do you think requires to be offered to attract a young medical man to take Colonial service? I suppose it would vary according to the Colony he was going to?-Yes; I should have thought, speaking broadly, that a salary comparable to the salaries offered in the two Services, in the Army and Navy, ought to be offered.
2556. The conditions are different, are they not?- The conditions in some respects are rather harder.
2557. That is what I mean, that he would require rather more?-I meant that as a minimum.
2558. What is the commencing salary in the R. A.M.C.-Sir William Leishman can answer that better than I can.
Sir William Leishman: I am afraid I cannot; they have just changed it; I am not quite familiar with the new rates, but it is satisfactory now. It is about double what it was when I joined it; I know that.
2559. Chairman: Have you anything else you wish to say in connection with the enquiry of this Com- mittee? Well, I prefer, sir, to answer any questions that are asked, because I have not got an inside knowledge of the service; but, broadly, think that if there wAB a Colonial Medical Service, a definite entity, that would greatly improve the position. I know that there are difficulties as regards that.
2560. You know that that has been effected as re- gards the West African Colonies P-Yes, I know that, sir.
2561. You think the more that principle is extended the better? Yes, I think that a man ought to be able to say that he belongs to a Service just in the same way as he does in the Army or Navy, and I think in that way an esprit de corps would be en- gendered which would be of great value. It would carry a number of other things with it. There would be a Head of auch a Service, and there would be n steady flow of promotion and so on. I am quite aware that there are grave difficulties in the way of this, I do not minimise that; but it occurred to me that it was possible that they might be got over by a method of soconding or posting, that if there was a Colonial Medical Service the officers could be seconded or posted from it to different Colonies. But those are not really questions that I know much about,
2562. After a man has joined the Colonial Service do you think anything should be done to encourage him to study?—Yes, sir, I do.
2563. In the Colony, or on leave? Well, I cannot speak about in the Colony, have no knowledge of that. I should have thought certainly on leave; that he ought to have study leave.
2564. Special study leave?-Special study leave,
you.
2565. What branches of study would you specially recommend?--Oh, tropical medicine specially.
3566. And sanitation? Yes, and possibly surgery, but specially in tropical medicine and sanitation.
[Continued.
2567. Sir James Fowler: You are in favour of the successful candidates being admitted to the Colonial Medical Bervice, and not, as at present, given a medical appointment under the Colonial Office?—Yes.
2568. Do you think of any better way in which to keep the existence of such a Service before the minds of students than by examination ?-For admission, you mean?
2569. Yes. Well, I think on the whole, the Army system is the best. I think the system of an interview first of all, and after that an examination. I think the interview is most important. That cer tainly should never be dispensed with. It has proved, I think, of great service in the Army. Of course, it in a difficult thing to handle, but it has been done successfully there, and there is no reason why it should not be done successfully in other places. Then, after that, an examination.
2570. I take it that no Department would accept a person as an officer in that Department unles5 they had had an opportunity of seeing him?—No, 1 suppose not.
2571. Do you think it would be a good thing, if it were possible, to have a single examination, qualifying or competitive, as the case may be at the moment, for all the Services-Indian, Army, Navy P-I have not really thought about that.
2572. From the point of view of a medical school would it not be an advantage, do you think, to have a single examination qualifying for the Bervices?— Well, I say I have not really thought about it, but I should have thought it probably was not desirable An examination like that, after all, would be simply a kind of general qualifying examination. Why have another qualifying examination if he is already quali- fied? In the past these different Services have from time to time attracted, or even repelled men to different degrees, consequently there has been great competition to enter one and there has been no com- petition to enter another. I think if you had a single general examination, it would rather stultify itself, because you could not work it by giving the men who passed best all to one Service.
2573. Every candidate sitting is nominated by a single Department ?-Oh! the candidate is to make up his mind beforehand?
2574. Yes. I see no objection to that; I misunder- stood the question, I thought you meant to have a single examination; I see no objection to that, of course, if the service is selected prior to the examina- tion.
2575. Do you think it will be a good thing to establish a Research Service in connection with the Colonial Medical Service?-Yes, I do. I think it would be a good thing for certain Officers in the Colonial Modical Service to be allocated to Research work, and for those Officers to have the power of requiring the Services of promising junior men that they happen to know of. You do not mean for men to enter the Colonial Service simply for the purpose of Research; you do not mean that?
2576. It would partly be a matter of promotion, and partly direct entry, that I have in mind.-- Well, I should have thought the best way would have been, if there was a man in the Colonial Ser- vice who had made a reputation in Research work, to put that man in charge of a Research Depart- ment, or whatever you like to call it, with a staff of a certain number of men, and then let him secure the services, from the list of men in the Service, of Buch persons as he thinks capable of working under him.
2577. That, of course, is done now to some extent? -Yoo, to solie extent. I do not think Research work can be done if it is simply done in the odd times apare] from routine work; I think there must be a special organisation to dead with it.
2578. Would you develop that out of a bacterio- logical service that has a bacteriologist? I think it
2 February, 1920.]
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
SIR JOHN ROBE BRADFORD, K.C.M.G.
ought to be wider than that; I do not think it ought to be limited to bacteriology. I think there ought to be a Department, the Head of which need not necessarily be a bacteriologist; he might or might not be; it ought to have a bacteriological side, a clinical side, and a pathological side. It certainly should not be limited to bacteriology.
2579. Chairman: Would you make it a purely medical research of an economical research, too?- Oh, purely medical, I think.
2580. Purely medical?--Yes, I think the other is too big.
2581. Sir James Fowler: But, having a Research Institute, there would be no harm in having various sides to it; ap economic side?-No, there might be similar Departments in other branches of course, but there ought to be a separate medical one, that is what I mean.
2582. That should be really apart from what we call the Clinical Laboratories necessary to every hospital? Yes; a Clinical Laboratory is merely an apparatus for getting accurate diagnosis; it is neces- Barily a part of the Rosearch Department. The Research Department should be much larger
organisation.
2583. Do you think it would be of advantage, speaking generally, that an officer who had shown special aptitude, either on the surgical side or on the medical side, should go up to almost the highest rank in the Service, without entering the Adminis trative Department at any time?-Do you mean in the non-medical Service P
do.
2584. No. In the Medical Service?
2585. Yea, in the Medical Service?-Certainly, I
2586. Do you not think that that in rather a dis- advantage of the present system, or was of the late system, in the Army?-Yes, unquestionably. That comes under the question again of status. Men were not considered fit to hold the higher posta anless they passed the bulk of their lives doing administrative work, and the man who had passed the bulk of his life doing scientific work, sometimes of a very high order indeed, was regarded more or less as useless and was not employed. There have been several instances of that, of course, notorious instances.
2587. Sir Harry Verney: Might I ask about the question of status again? As I understand it, a newly qualified man, in your opinion, would put an appointment under the Colonial Office last in the different openings?-I could not say whether he would actually at the present time. You see, it is rather invidious to say these things; is it not?
2588. It comes pretty well to that P-Yos; I think just at the present moment another Service might be put last. But I think, if you take the whole of my time as a teacher in a London Medical School, the Colonial Service certainly would not have been put equal to the Army or the Navy.
2589. Dealing with the question of status, you think one of the most important things is that he should belong to a definite Service?—Yes.
2590. As for instance, the R.A.M.C.P-Yes; and have a uniform.
2591. Have a uniform?-I was not saying that quite seriously.
2592. Chairman: I found our Colonial Medical Ser- vice did not like a uniform.-I was not saying that quite seriously.
2503. Sir Harry Verney: You realise that the difficulties are almost insuperable of having a man who would be transferred from the West Indies to East Africa P-I have no experience. The only suggestion I can make is whether it is not possible to do that by a system of seconding or posting. In my work as secretary of the Royal Society I was very familiar with the way in which the Army has seconded numerous medical officers for doing Colonial
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161
[Continued.
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Office work. It has been
B common practice for R.A.M.C. officers to be seconded to the Colonial Office, and a great amount of work in tropical Africa has been done for the Colonial Office by Army medical officers. Now it has occurred to me, why cannot that be done by the Colonial Office with reference to the different Colonies? It is a auggestion; I do not know whether it is practicable or not.
mere
2594. Adopting that for a moment, supposing every officer was seconded, it would still be worth while having a Colonial Medical Service, even though it was nothing but that in name?-You could not do the seconding unless you had a Colonial Medical Service.
2595. If you put every man you got into the Colonial Medical Service and then seconded him for special jobs P-In the different Colonies.
2596. That would be worth doing? That is my suggestion.
2597. Though it would be a Colonial Medical Ser- vice only in name ?-I do not say that at all. Tako
the Army Medical Service. Some officers are sent to India, some to Ireland, some to China, some to England; you would not say the Army Medical Service was only a Bervice in name.
2508. Chairman: They are all paid by one Govern- ment? Yes, that is the difficulty, I know.
2599. That is not so in India; they are paid by the Indian Government?-(Sir W. Leishman): That is not quite so; when we send Army officers to India they are paid by the Indian Government; they are not paid by the War Office.
2600. Sir Harry Verney: I agree with you; I know that the Colonial Office view is that the differences are so great and so fundamental that you cannot have any plan of joint service?—Yes.
2601. Then, I say, even if the Service becomes only a Service in name, it is worth having ?-I differ from you. I do not think it would be only a service in name, any more than you can that the R.A.M.C. is only a service in name because h man goes to India or China. 7 quite admit there is a difficulty as regards the salary inasmuch as some Colonies pay different rates from others, and that seems to me the only difficulty.
2602. I was rather taking the point that, thougn the Service would be only in name, your answer would be it is still worth while?-Yea, but I do not agree it would be only in name.
2603. You spoke about having a Head of it; what have you in mind?-A Director-General,
BO.
2604. Here at the Colonial Office P-Yes, I suppose
2605. With a staff P-I have not thought of the details of it.
2606. Again realizing that the different Govern- ments pay their officers, each Colony pays its own officers, you have not considered who would control the man here, and who would pay him, and whom he would control in turn P-I have only thought of it quite generally that there should be one supreme Head who would control all. He would be controlled by the Secretary of State, I suppose.
2607. Have you thought of his functions at all; would he travelP-I should have thought he ought to travel.
2608. Travel half his time?—I have not thought out details of that.
2609. One more point about the status; have you any other definite suggestions about improving the status, given a Colonial Medical Service? The ossen- tial things for improving the status ?
• 2610. Yan?-Colonial Medical Bervice; I put that first. Of course, pay must come in.
2611. That is under statua P-Perhaps it in not under status; no, it is not under status. Next after
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