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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON
34
15 December, 1919.]
COLONIAL MEDICAL SERVICES COMMITTEE.
CAPTAIN G. J. KEANE, D.B.O., R.A.M.C.
work hard there is nothing to gain, you cannot do any good.
12. But you would be inclined to recommend first-rate mon for the Bervice P-1 think so, because 1-believe that improvements are bound to come, but I do not go so far as 1 ought to do.
1128. Now, in order to get such a man what ought the commencing salary to be?-From what I have seen in the Lancet lust week, it is proposed to raise the salary to something more satisfactory.
1124. £400 to start with?—Yes, with this bonus of £48 and a war bonus,
Secretary: £120 in West Africa; in East Africa it depends on whether you are married or not, and ranges from £105 for married men to £55 for un- married men and down.
1125. Sir Harry Verney: That is satisfactory, you think?--There is one point; I do not know that the bonus compensatom a man for the increased cost of living when on leave.
1126. It ought to go on, you mean, if the cost of living does not fall? Yes, what I mean is: I have just come home from East Africa, if the bonus is in. tended to compensate for increased cost of living here it is not enough. I get £45 a year, which does not compensate, and any officers coming home now will complain and be dissatisfied.
1127. Chairman: What is the increased cost of living between 1914 and now in British East Africa for young man?--I am talking for the moment of men on leave. Of course, it is more than double. I am a bachelor, a matter of fact, but the men
coming home on similar salaries complain very bitterly, and they will, if you pay them now at the rate of £500 a year and a bonus of £45. With £545 I am poorer than I was 11 years ago, and every Individual officer who comes home now ia very discontented. The bonus does not meet the altered conditions at all. If a man is married; and has A wife and three children and a nurse, then, while £646 a year pay is generally satisfactory, it is not so on leave; it does not fit into the leave conditions.
1128. Do you get full or half-pay on leave?-Full pay.
1129. For how long? For the period of your leave. 1180. If you have been out there three years? If you have been out there three years you get for 24 year' service six months' leave on full pay.
1191. And if you want an extension it is on half- pay?—Any extension beyond that is without pay.
1132. Even if you are ill?—That I do not know. Secretary: Half-pay.
1189. Sir Harry Verney: If we might pursue the first-rate man entering the Service, satisfied at the start, when ought he to expect promotion? What proportion of better paid posts ought you to have to junior posts in order to have a reasonable Service; can you give any idea of that?—I am not quite clear. about the present scale, the new scale.
1184. A man gets up to £600 before he gets pro- motion with the ordinary increments of salary?-- Yes.
1135. Chairman: How long does it take him to get to £600? There is an annual increment of £20 A year.
1188. Sir Harry Verney: Up to £500, and then from £500 by annual increment of £35 a year to £600, but he is still in the lowest grade?--After eight years he is at £600.
1137. In the ninth year he gets on to £600; is that satisfactory PI think the pay ought to be at least as good as the R.A.M.C., and I know that there, after 3 years' service, you rise from Lieutenant to Captain, and on the completion of 12 years' service you become Major. If a man joins the R.A.M.C., At the end of his twelfth year of service he draws about £900.
1138. Chairman: That is in England? Well, any- where.
1139. But he would get a Colonial allowance if he went to the tropics? When seconded he gets no special allowances.
[Continued.
1140. Ho gata no special allowances; his pay in Eng band for work in England would be £900 ?—He would have that pay wharevor he went.
1141. He would have that pay anywhere, but when he is in England he draws that pay and nothing else; when is abroad he would draw that pay with allow- ances? They have in the R.A.M.C. pay, with addi- tions for servant allowance, light and fuel, and lodging allowance; I was taking it roughly at £900; it is not exactly that.
1142. Sir Harry Verney: About that?—An average of what he might get
1143. What does the Colonial man get?-He gets £600, plus £50 duty allowance, and the bonus, which might be £100 or £50, according to whether he is married or not.
1144. At nine years he gets £750, as against your R.A.M.€. man who gets £900 at the end of 12 years; there is not much in it. The Colonial man gata his automatically?--Yes, up to £750.
1145. He gets the £750 after nine years; does that seem satisfactory ?-I cannot get a comparison with 12 years service. May I show you the R.A.M.C. Rates; you can compare the two at seven years?
1146. Having got to your £750, how many senior posts ought there to be?-In the R.A.M.O. you are Major at £900, then Lieut.-Colonel, and then, if you are fortunate enough to become a General, you may get about £2,500. If you are lucky, these are the opportunities in the R.A.M.C. That is what the Colonial Service is competing against.
1147. Is that R.A.M.Č. Scale a new Scale that has been introduced?—Yes; it is liable to be reduced.
1148. If the cost of living goes down? Only a certain percentage of the increase would be taken off, and only after a certain number of years; it cannot be affected for three years, I think.
1149. Do not the Director and the Deputy Director- General of Medical Service get £1,750 and £1,500?—
Lieut. Colonel is what most Yes, but Major become.
or
1160. So that it compares favourably with the R.A.M.C.?—Yes, but in the R.A.M.O. there are other conditions; that is to say they have to qualify, they have to pass examinations. Some people do not care about joining a Service in which there are examina- tions to be faced constantly.
1151. Sir James Fowler: Tho rejections from Captain to Major are few?- It is a pretty stiff examination for Major.
1152. It is after a long course; I have examined often?--Yea.
1158. Sir Humphry Rolleston: It would be very interesting if you would compare the men who go into the R.A.M.C. with what you have seen of the men in this Service, because it is obvious many more men go in for the R.A.M.C., because there are a great many more vacancies. But the quality of the men; would you say that there are more men who show perhaps an original ability and are anxious to go in for research, natural history, or otherwise, or would you any that the majority of the men in the Coloniat Service are the residue of those who cannot get into the R.A.M.O.?—No, I think differently; you get a very good type of men; it is what they become in the Colony.
1154. They become disillusioned P-They have noth- ing to do, there is nothing for them but merely to acquiro a certain seniority and draw their pension. There is nothing for them at all, or there was not a few years ago.
1155. Supposing, they wanted to do any research they have to make their opportunities rather than to have them? If you were appointed a Colonial Bur- geon, you could not get on to research. You would have to be sent out specially to do research work. Imagine yourself arriving in Uganda and saying to the principal medical officer, "I want to do re- search." He would probably say, "I want a man to Research would not come go to Jinja to carry on."
in the way. There is no question about the ability of the men I have seen out there, but I think they
get very little opportunity to pursue research work.
1156. Do you think, from their point of view, that they have not realised what they rather anticipated,
15 December, 1919.]
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE:
CAPTAIN G. J. KEANE, D.8.0., B.A.M.0.
the majority of them? Well, if a man goes out as a basteriologist, he is quite happy; he has got his bacteriological work. A very small number do it.
1157. There is a small number to judge on?--When I went out there, I think there were only about eight or ten fellows. It is a very young Service; you are considering a very small nuniber of people.
1158. What was your own feeling; did you know much of the Colonial Bervice at the time you went into the R.A.M.C.?—The R.A.M.C., al tie time I joined, had a much better reputation than the Colonial Service, I think.
1159. Mr. Fiddian: When was that?--I joined the R.A.M.C. in January, 1908.
1160. With reference to this question of post- graduate study, you say there is practically no en- couragement given for it in Uganda? Did I say
that?
1161. Something like it; you have not known any case where a man was encouraged to take a post- graduate course on coming home, we will say? I should not have said there is no encouragement given; in India there is a definite arrangement, what they call leave study.
1162. In West Afrion there is a very definite rule; I will put it to you and you will say whether it would be sufficient. A man who wants to go through a post-graduate course of study has to obtain, in the first instance, the permission of the Governor, through the principal medical officer; that is to pre- vent people taking classes they are not qualified to profit by. He would probably get an extension of leave, if necessary, to enable him to do it. That ex- tension of leave would be on half pay. On the other hand, his fees would olearly be paid and a certain margin allowance and a training allowance. Before the War, the training allowance was 58. a day, a larger allowance than is offered in the Army. That was the principle when it was first approved. In the case of the West African Medical Staff, before a man could go on to this higher scale of £500 rising to £600, he had to take a post-graduate course, and, for that purpose, he also received half-pay. In that case, the post-graduate course was prescribed. He had to go to the London Clinical School, or that place at Hammersmith, unless he could show that there was some special class that he wonki substitute for it, or unle ho took the D.P.H. Do you think that that Rule I have put it quite summarily would meet the case if adopted elsewhere? I think something of that kind. I cannot remember what the terms are, or how they fix the men when they como home. It is very difficult for a married man now, when he comes home. I do not think he could stay here for three months more.
1163. Even on full pay?-Another thing for the married man is, Income Tax; over his six months' time he would have to pay one-sixth of his income in Income Tax: you would have to make it reasonably possible for him.
1164. We should have to wangle it somehow; get rid of the Income Tax P-That is one difficulty you would have. Another thing is that something would have to be done to improve this bonus arrangement while here.
1165. Have you ever heard any suggestion that it would be a good thing if the Colonial Medical Service were organised more on the lines of the R.A.M.C., for instance, with military rank and uni- form? I have not heard very much of that.
1166. You have probably come across Medical Officers who rather like the military idea P--Not very much.
1167. You think the experience of the war might have cured them of that P-I should not think the majority do think very much of that. Again, we
are thinking of quite a small number.
1168. During the campaign, you have met a good many Medical Officers?—Yes, and I think, on the whole, they would prefer to work under civil oondi- tions rather than military.
1169. Chairman: Military rank would not appeal to them; they would not care for it; and the uni- form? They have a uniform.
26248
[Continued.
35
1170. Do they wear it--Yes. 1171. The ordinary civil uniform?—Yes. 1172. A white uniform?—No; Kha-ki Servise. 1173. Was that before the war?—Yes. 1174. Mr. Fiddiam: It is not the ordinary civil uniform; I think that would hardly get down as far as Medical Officers P-I may be wrong in that; I thought they all had uniform.
1175. Do you think it would be a good plan to amalgamate the Uganda and East African Services for the sake of affording better opportunity for pro- motion? I thought you said, if the proportion was higher in East Africa?-1 think I said that 'in Uganda and East Africa there are not a great number of appointments, and amalgamating the two Services alone, unless the number of appointments is to he increased, does not seem to provide a remedy. 1176. It tends to regularise the flow of promotion. If you have ten senior appointments and 50 juniors, you are less likely to have a sudden block of pro- motion than if you have 150 senior officers and 25 juniors. I believe that is the general experience?— At present, are not officers in Uganda eligible? Sup- posing a vacancy falls in East Africa, I believe they could apply. I do not know, but I think they do apply when they hear that a Principal Medical Officership, or a Senior Sanitary Officership is vacant. I think they could apply; I do not know.
1177. Chairman: They could apply, but would they have any chance of succeeding?—I really do not know what the custom is.
1178. Mr. Fiddian: Is sanitary work popular among Medical Officers in Uganda ?-The Medical Officer of Health appointment; I rather think it is not very popular. I think they are rather blocked if they get into that; they cannot get any further. I rather heard that.
1179. There may be an impression; I have not heard of it; they get something extra for being Medical Officer of Health, do they not?-Are they not held up at the £500 to £600 scale; can they become Senior Medical Officer if they become Medical Officer of Health? AN these things are quite new. They must come to the £500 to £600, but I think the man would have a better chance of becoming Senior Medical Officer if ho were not a Medical Oncer of Health. That is the impression I have; whether it is a correct one or not. I do not know.
1180. Bir Harry Verney: In his ninth year our man geta £750.-A Captain in the R.A.M.C, after five years' service that would be 84 years—is get- ing £731 or £662, according whether he is married or single.
1181. Our man, if marriad, is better.-In addition to that, he is liable to draw an addition to £781 of allowances ranging from £45 to £180.
The
1182. Our man gets £600 plus £100, plus £40, then he has done better. He would get £750. R.A.M.C. man might be drawing £781, plus £180; that is the maximum he might draw; the minimum he could draw would be £652, plus £45–—about £700. 1183. Chairman: Is that in England? That is anywhere he might be serving.
1184. Sir Harry Verncy: If he wore sent to India, Bay I think he gets rather more; I think he gets special allowance, but that I am not quite clear about.
1185. What does he start at in the R..MC.P— £495 or £558, that is married or single, plus allow-
ances.
1186. He starts at £495 his first year?-His first year his allowances are between £15 and £180. His pay is £495; he would draw th: £495, plus something between £45 and £180.
1187. So the lowest is £540, whereas our man gets £400, plus £40, plus whatever bonuses he gets-£50 or £100 he gots £490. That is not quite so good? No.
1188. Sir James Fowler: Whilst you have been seconded for service in East Africa are you drawing pay still as a member of the R.A.M.C. or as a Colonial servant? Unfortunately, I have been paid as
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