PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE
TIT
Reference :-
LHC.O. 885
24 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON
ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH—NOT TO BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC-
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Who are themselves passage brokers?—Yes, and the Royal Holland Lloyd. And is your licence from them countersigned by the Emigration Officer each year?—Yes.
When was your old office, 163, Strand, burnt down?--Two years ago last Christmas.
Did you then move to 161a?—Yes.
I will take you generally through this. Have you any personal recollection about any
of these gentlemen who have been called here to give evidence who booked can only recall the one through you to the Argentine?—I cannot recall them.
that went to Persia. That is the only one I can recall.
That is the telegraphist?--I do not remember any of the other men.
I have admitted on your behalf, and rightly, I think, that all of them with the exception of Evans did, in fact, book their passages to the Argentine through you?—Yes.
That you have been able to trace from your books?—Yes.
Have you ever been in the Argentine yourself?--No, never.
These various witnesses have told us-we will leave the verbal conversations out for the moment-that you handed them a number of pamphlets or sent them a number of pamphlets?—Yes, these pamphlets.
Take Will you tell the learned Magistrate where you got the pamphlets from? the first one, the white one?-That is supplied to me by the Royal Holland Lloyd. Mr. Wainwright supplied that.
What is the one underneath there that letter?—I had a number of these from the Nelson Line, about a couple of hundred, and about 500 from the Royal Holland Lloyd, the same letter, printed and sent to me.
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They were sent to you?--Yes.
Then the yellow document?—This was sent to me by the Royal Holland Lloyd.
I have had about 5,000 of these sent to me. suppose
What is the next one?-This one is my own printing, because I wanted the space to put my name in and the dates of sailing, so I had to print it myself, but it is a copy of the other.
A copy of which ?-This one here.
Where did you get this one from?--That comes from the Royal Holland Lloyd.
Cheap The only one that you print yourself is this one which is headed “ passages others.
"? Yes. As a matter of fact there is some information also from the Another document has been referred to, this document called "The Argentine Republic, 1912," which contains a map inside?-That is supplied to me by the Argentine Consul.
In what sort of numbers?-The last parcel was 200.
Did you get literature to distribute about other countries as well as the Argen- tine-From the Government Intelligence Office, the Emigrants' Information Office. Did you know anything about the Argentine Republic yourself beyond what is contained in these pamphlets?—No, nothing at all.
Had you ever had complaints from any of the persons who had booked tickets through you by any of these lines you represent to the Argentine?-Not at all. No one has ever returned to me complaining. They have returned to me and re booked to go out again.
They have returned to you before now to go out again?—Yes, on the very same、 ship. They have done that.
There was one that has been referred to. You do not dispute that. You inserted these advertisements in the newspapers through Willings? That is right, is it not?Quite right.
I think I can take you now to the interview between you and the emigration gentlemen on the 10th January, 1913. Do you remember that?-Quite well.
Two of them, I think, came to see you?—Yes.
Did you know who they were?-Yes. They gave me their cards--Mr. Macnaghten and Mr. Jones.
Would you tell us in your own words what happened at that interview?-Well, he said they understood I was booking a lot to South America, and people were not doing well out there at all, and they had far better go to their own Colonies. I said, "It does not matter to me whether they go to their own Colonies or not.” He said, "Do you give them the right information about South America?"
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The CLERK: That is what he said to you, is it?—Yes. I said, “I hand every one that calls here the printed matter that is supplied to me by the governing authorities and the shipping people. They are all exposed on the desk here for them to take up."
Then he noticed their own handbooks there, and he said, “I see you have got those stamped with your rubber stamp on.'
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Mr. RAEBURN: Do you mean that book? No. The same size, only it has a He white cover, containing general information. I do not think you have one. said, "We cannot allow that." I said, "I do not know why you should not allow that. I have 800 copies of your handbooks to give away every year and I distribute I take the trouble to send them, and that is the reason I put my stamp on them.' them by post and I must not put my indiarubber stamp on them. Then he said, You did have a notice up in your old office. I do not see one here, a warning." I I will send you said, "Well, if you will send me one I will put it up." He said,
one.
It is printed in red ink." I said, "I shall certainly put it up. I had one before, but it did not interfere with the booking at all, as if the people wanted to go to Buenos Ayres they would go. They would not take any notice of these." The warning never reached me; I never received it from the office as promised.
Do you remember anything else that passed?—I told him I would do all I could
to assist him by distributing their books and notices, and I have never heard a word from them since.
Mr. COMYNS CARR: This was not put to Mr. Macnaghten.
Mr. RAEBURN: I put as much as I knew of it to him.
Mr. COMYNS CARR: It was not suggested this gentleman asked for the warning notice.
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Mr. RAEBURN: I did, indeed, put it specifically. Mr. Macnaghten's recollec-
tion was so utterly vague. He could not remember it.
Did anyone say anything to you about a petition?—No.
Or any document in which you were mentioned as the chief offender?-No. I never heard that word mentioned at all.
Did they call you or refer to you as an offender at all?-Oh, no.
It was more
of a friendly talk. There was nothing serious about their visit at all that I could make out.
Had you any idea, as the result of this interview, that you were an offender ?— Not the slightest. They went away perfectly friendly, and said I was to exercise a little more caution in warning these people. That is all the information they had
of me.
Did you continue advertising this fare at £7 through Willings?-We had been advertising it at £5.
That is when rates were cut previous?—Yes, £5, and then up to £8. There had been some cutting and the rates varied?—Yes.
And you went on advertising it? Yes, and the Company paid for it, because they paid for the advertisement.
Were you advertising between January 10th, 1913, and August the same?-I think most weeks.
And in a large number of papers?—Yes, about a dozen.
Can you recollect telling any of these gentlemen that have been called here they would be sure to find work in the Argentine ?-That they would be sure of it? I only got the authority from these books.
The MAGISTRATE: Just answer the question.
Mr. RAEBURN: Leave the books, so to speak, for the moment.
Do not consider
the pamphlets for a moment. I will ask you, for instance, about the gentleman who came from Persia.
The MAGISTRATE: That was Mr. Parsons, the telegraphist.
Mr. RAEBURN: Yes, that was Mr. Parsons, the telegraph engineer, who came home from Persia. You remember him, do you not ?--Yes, I remember him because he came from Persia, and I said. ̈ You know what foreigners are if you have had dealings with foreigners on railway construction. I should think you would be handy on the construction of railways in the Argentine." but nothing beyond that was said.
Did you tell him anything about whether telegraphs were being made in the Argentine?—No, I do not know anything about it myself.
That does not follow. Did you tell him that he would find work as a telegraph engineer? -Certainly rot.
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