PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE
Reference :-
REPLEN C.O.885
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21 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON
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it published that Mr. Downham has sent a communication to the Committee marked
Private and Confidential."
Mr. OGILVIE-GRANT: That is the book which has been published long ago. CHAIRMAN (to the witness): What do you suggest A. I do not suggest any- thing at all; its appearance in the Press may not be known to you, but it did not look well.
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Mr. ILLINGWORTH: The book we have here is marked Private and Conf- dential "that is right; it was only an advance copy of the book.—A. I have been misled. The Press notice spoke of a "communication which he had addressed to the Committee and which was marked Private and Confidential.' ·
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CHAIRMAN: Lord Avebury, I suppose, would be a supporter of this Bill of Mr. Alden's !-A. He is a strong supporter.
Mr. FAGAN: We do not know how far he is prepared to go.
CHAIRMAN (to the witness): You regard him as one of your supporters?— A. Yes; if you and Mr. Fagan too would excuse me giving my views on the matter, when that Bill gets, if it ever does get, into Committee you will not recognise it when it comes out, as everyone will have a finger in the píe, and there will be such a lot of that sort of thing that all these suggestions could come then. If the Bill ever gets into Committee it will be transformed out of all knowledge; the only thing is to get it there and to get some legislation of some kind or another which will tend to stop this traffic.
Mr. ILLINGWORTH: Just returning to the unemployment question again, do I understand from you that 5,000 to-day are employed in manipulating £20,000 worth of feathers?-A. No.
Q. These are the people engaged in the trade-A. They take all the dock labourers, the men who help with the cases, and say that there are about 5,000 people altogether employed.
Q. Absolutely manipulating the feathers-A. I do not think the English people are capable of doing it.
Q. What do they do to the feathers before they put them on the market for sale in the milliner's window-A. They simply sit down and let France and Germany make them up.
Q. But I am speaking of the 20 per cent.; they say that we are to throw thousands of people out of employment, and I want rebutting evidence for that fact: do I understand now that 5,000 people are employed in manipulating the 20 per cent. of feathers, and how are the feathers treated in this country before being put into the milliner's shop for sale--A. There is no industry for treating feathers in this country.
CHAIRMAN: What do you suggest is done with the 20 per cent. of feathers? Mr. ILLINGWORTH: Do they lick them, or wash them, or what, before they appear in the window ?—A. You must understand that many of the feathers, for instance those of the tanagers and others, are quite ready to be put into the hats. Some feathers are sent almost in a state ready for use, and these are the 20 per cent. which are not deemed necessary to be sent abroad to be manipulated.
CHAIRMAN: You suggest that a large part of the 20 per cent. of the feathers which are retained here are put straight by the milliners' assistants into the hats?—
Yes.
A.
Q. And those milliners' assistants are reckoned in the estimate of 5,000 people to whom they give employment?-A. I presume so, but that I do not know; I know the trade say that there are 5,000 employed altogether in connection with this thing. Mr. ILLINGWORTH: In connection with the imported plumage?-A. Yes. Q. Including the ostrich feather? A. Yes, that is the number of people they stated before the Lords Select Committee would be affected if the Bill went through. If you have not a copy, I have a copy in the waiting-room in which you will see their figures.
Mr. READ: In the case of the ostrich feathers there is a good deal of preliminary operation; they have to be bleached and so on?--A. There is an immense lot of preparation; the ostrich feather which is taken from the bird is a very bedraggled- looking thing.
The witness withdrew.
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MEETING OF WEDNESDAY, MARCH 1st, 1911.
The Right Honourable The LORD AVEBURY, D.C.L., LL.D., F.R.S., D.L., examined:
CHAIRMAN: I suppose you would hope that the Conference would support the Bill which Mr. Alden has introduced into Parliament this Session ?-A. Yes, I should. Perhaps I might just say that when I was asked to take up the question, before doing so, I wrote to the Selborne Society, the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds, the Linnean Society, and the Zoological Society, regarding them as the four societies which had to do with the matter, and they were good enough, each of them, to appoint representatives, and they had a meeting at my house. The British Museum was also represented, and specially I consulted the late Mr. Bowdler Sharpe, and there was a general consensus of opinion that something ought to be done, as many of these beautiful birds were being destroyed, and all the societies agreed to common action. Naturally at first there was some little difference as to the best method of dealing with the question, but the naturalists were practically unanimous in considering that it was really grave and pressing, and that some of these birds were being exterminated; and under those circumstances I agreed to take the matter up in the House of Lords, and, as you know, brought in a Bill which was referred to a Committee of the House. The Committee and the Bill passed.
were practically unanimous, We had evidence before us, I think, from the Colonial Office, although you will know more about that than I do; at any rate
had evidence from the representatives of the Colonies and from the India Office, and the United States Legation were good enough to send a representative, and they all agreed that their legislation was to a consider- able extent rendered nugatory by the absence of any legislation here. They were strongly in favour of legislation here, and said that, while they were doing their best to preserve their beautiful birds, if Parliament would pass our Bill, or something like it, it would strengthen their hands very much. The India Office particularly mentioned that plumage came as hay and under a variety of other designations, and that the Customs could not deal with it as the law stood. The Board of Trade representative said that if our Bill passed that would enable them to deal with the question, and do much to carry out the Indian legislation. Naturally I am very much in favour of the Bill we introduced, and this is substantially the same.
we
Q. The great objection, as you know, that is raised to this Bill is that the same trade would go on, only it would go on through Paris instead of through London as it does at present; have you heard that objection !—A. Oh yes; the trade gave evidence before the House of Lords Select Committee to that effect, and I would like just to say that it has been often said that the London Chamber of Commerce did this, that, and the other, but the London Chamber of Commerce have never had the matter before them, and have never taken any action; it has always been that particular section of the Chamber, and I do not say they have ever unfairly stated that they were the Chamber of Commerce, but other people have, partly for shortness, and it has given a wrong impression. I should like, therefore, to make it quite clear that it has never been the Chamber of Commerce as a body but that particular section, which is quite entitled to take the line they have done. Of course, naturally, I should be sorry to do anything to interfere with the commerce of London, but I really could not myself see that it could possibly do so. Speaking from recollection-I should like perhaps, if I may, to verify the figures if you will send me the shorthand writer's notes-out of a total of over £2,000,000 worth of feathers which come in, our Bill only interfered with something consider- ably under £100,000 worth. I do not quite know what the French duties on feathers may be, but they have duties upon almost everything, and, of course, that would very much interfere with the trade going to Paris. such a very minute fraction of the trade being stopped here would interfere with such I can hardly think that a very much larger trade; and I need hardly say that if we were fortunate enough to secure some legislation here, the ornithologists would all take up the question in France and Germany and endeavour to secure the same legislation, or something similar to it, there. We feel that we can do very little in France as long as we do nothing here.
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