PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE
Reference :--
TLHC.O.
885
21 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON
ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO
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No. 124.
MEMORANDUM.
Mr. Scheurmier and Mr. Wilson, two representatives of the firm of Thomas Nelson and Son, called here in response to my letter of the 21st of March.*
I gave them an account of the Committee's work and said that the present pro- posal was for the production of coloured wall pictures reproduced from Mr. Fisher's paintings, to supplement the work which the Committee already have in hand. Mr. Wilson knew of the Committee and had seen the book on India in his capacity as editor of the "Practical Teacher."
I showed some of the paintings and we discussed their suitability for enlarge ment. I was assured that many of them could be enlarged without any touching up.
In answer to their questions, I told them that (1) the basis of agreement most likely to be acceptable to the Committee was that the publishers should bear the cost of reproduction, paying the Committee for the use of the originals by means of a royalty on sales; (2) the paintings were not to be touched except by Mr. Fisher; (3) the Committee would retain the copyright of the pictures; (4) the competing firms must first satisfy the Committee as to the quality of their work; the question of terms would then decide the selection; (5) the right to publish the wall pictures would be granted to the selected firm only; but that (6) some of the Indian paintings had been reproduced as coloured slides, and probably others would be used for the further sets in preparation.
They furnished me with specimens of their firm's work, including examples of
a set of pictures illustrating Scripture history and a few books.
Sir Charles Holroyd inspected the specimens which I had received from different firms and placed them in the following order of merit :-
(1) Fine Art Publishing Company.
Longman, Green, & Company.
(2)
( Cassell's.
(3)
( Nelson.
Arnold, of Leeds.
No. 1 published at too high a price-15s. or £1 1s.
These two gentlemen called again and I informed them that their specimen cartoons were not approved, and that the book illustrations did not help, as the question was one of enlargement.
They entirely agreed on this last point and said that they had sent the books to show that their firm did colour printing on a large scale. They pointed out that their Scripture pictures, of which they had a series of about 144, were issued at 8d. each, as against 2s. 6d., the published price of the specimens of the two firms whose work was preferred to theirs; that if a slightly higher price were fixed they could produce much better work, and that reproductions of the Committee paintings, which were in oil, would give better results than the Scripture pictures, of which the originals were water-colours. They proposed a series of about 100 pictures at 1s., and offered to make, at their own expense, a sample reproduction of one of the Committee's pictures to show what they could do with the material available at the price they suggested. said that other firms had made the same offer, but that the Committee would not wish any firm to incur the expense, in case negotiations should be broken off. They replied that they were quite prepared to take all risks and pressed the point very strongly. As their scheme was so much larger than those of other firms, I finally agreed and promised to lay their proposals before the Committee.
The letter from Messrs. Nelson of the 6th of May followed this interview, and I allowed Mr. Wilson, who came with Mr. Scheurmier, to take away a painting of a Maori girl.
The proofs of the reproduction arrived too late for the Committee meeting of the 16th of June, and, in accordance with the instructions of the Committee, I showed them to Sir John Struthers and Sir Charles Holroyd, both of whom thought them suitable for the purpose in view. Before any further action was taken, Mr. Scheurmier called here alone at the beginning of this week. I informed him that the proofs were considered satisfactory by the members of the Committee who had
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seen them, but that they had yet to be passed by Mr. Fisher-who, I have since heard, has been very ill and will not be in town for some weeks. If Mr. Fisher approved we could proceed to arrange details.
Mr. Scheurmier remarked that he assumed his firm would be at liberty to use the pictures in any way they pleased: for instance, in Christmas books or in geogra- phical handbooks which they are now preparing. I told him that I felt convinced that the Committee would object to their pictures being used in conjunction with letterpress for which they did not vouch, and referred to the book on India published by Messrs. Philip and to the other books in preparation. Mr. Scheurmier declared that he was not aware of the existence of the "India" book, although he was with Mr. Wilson when I showed the latter a copy and was told that he, Mr. Wilson, had already seen it. He went on to say that he did not know what importance his firm attached to this right, which they had not considered but had taken for granted, and that it might be a very small matter which would make no difference to them. He said he would communicate again. The letter of the 29th of June* followed.
I asked Mr. Scheurmjer over the telephone yesterday whether he would call and see Sir Charles Lucas and tried to fix a time for a meeting. Mr. Scheurmier said he would call if he could, but that he saw no use in an interview; his firm con- sidered the point in question of vital importance, and, unless the Committee conceded it, they would withdraw their letter of the 6th of May and claim for the cost of the specimen reproduction-which he estimated at £100.
Until Mr. Scheurmier last called here, neither he nor Mr. Wilson had given me any indication whatever that their firm might wish to use the reproductions in any other way than as enlarged pictures.
1 July, 1911.
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No. 125. MEMORANDUM
W. E. NOALL.
OF INTERVIEW BETWEEN SIR CHARLES LUCAS AND MESSRS. NELSON'S REPRESENTATIVES ON THE 1ST OF JULY.
Mr. Scheurmier and Mr. Wilson called on Sir Charles Lucas with reference
to Messrs. Nelson's letter of the 29th of June.* Mr. Risley and Mr. Noall were present.
Sir Charles Lucas pointed out that no reference was made in the correspondence to the use the pictures in books, and that the Committee had never contemplated anything but wall-pictures.
Mr. Scheurmier said that from the beginning he had had in mind such further uses for the pictures and that they interpreted "rights of publication" to apply
to all forms of the pictures except lantern slides.
Mr. Wilson quoted the second clause in the letter of the 6th of May.t Mr. Risley said that, reading the original invitation of the 21st of Marcht with their letter of the 6th of May, and taking the first clause of their letter with the remaining clauses, the question entirely related to wall-pictures.
In reply to Sir Charles Lucas, Mr. Noall stated that he had never understood from the earlier interviews that books or anything beyond wall-pictures were con- templated. This was controverted by Messrs. Wilson and Scheurmier.
Mr. Wilson asked whether, if small blocks were made--he mentioned 48-to illustrate an advertising circular, those blocks might be used by the firm in any way they pleased.
Mr. Scheurmier said he adhered to the letter of 29th June and withdrew the letter of the 6th of May. Mr. Wilson told Sir Charles Lucas that amount of the claim would be between £50 and £100.
Sir Charles Lucas said that the letter of the 29th of June* would be laid before the Committee, but that he could hold out no hope that the Committee would entertain a claim for compensation or a request for permission to use the pictures in books.
1 July, 1911.
W. E. N.
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† No. 110.
‡ No. 106.
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