PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE
Reference :-
C.O.885
19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON
ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO
110
13 July 1909]
CROWN AGENTS ENQUIRY COMMITTEE:
Mr. W. H. MERCER, U.M.G.
2255. And in that way you are brought into touch with the Colonies-Very inuch; 1 see them privately and socially.
2257. And, brondly, your view is that you wish your office to draw nearer to the Crown Colonies' side? --Yets.
2258. Both officially and with the public?—Yes.
$250. If you like it would be very helpful to the Committee if. in addition to this statement of com plaints and what happens, very briefly you were to make any suggestions that might wear to you in the privacy of your chamber as to putting the Crown Agents more closely in touch with the Crown Colonies. their Governors, and peoples?--I do not know that f can suggest anything, because I have thought over it a good deal, and the only thing that ever occurred to me was what I said that we want everybody from a Crown Colony who can conveniently call upon us to do so in that despatch which summus up the whole sitantion I got the Colonial Office to say that to the Crown Colonies-that the Crown Agents would be very pleased and so forth to see them upon ang occasion whatever.
2260. Do they come in greater numbers as a conse quence of that? Yes. in greater numbers, but we should welcome more of them. The fact is, when a Colonial official comes over here he does not always want to do business-he wants to get away from it. very naturally.
2201. (Sir Albert Spier.) In connection with the object you have, very strongly, of trying to bring tha Colonies nearer to the Crown Agents, in the course of the inquiry it has come ont that there is no direct correspondence-it is not the duty of one officer to correspond with one of the Colonies?No.
9962. You do it in Departments?—Yes.
2263. So that it is nobody's special duty really to get all the information he can with regaril to one special Colony, so as to try to come into the really closest relationship, so that they might feel that you really understand them, and are anxious to carry ont their wishes; have you ever thought of anything that might be done in that direction Frequently. I think our system is the best for this reason our primary object, so far as the distribution of business is concerned, is to supply stores, and what we want to encourage in our office is an intelligent knowledge of these stores which are procured from this country. It is quite true that local information of the Colonies is also useful to us, but, after all, of the two things it comes second, and not first. Take my own Depart- ment. or rather one of them, the tieneral Stores, Arms and Ammunition; all the Crown Colonies want arms. and ammunition, and it is absolutely necessary that the clerk dealing with that subject should have a technical knowledge of these things, and I have got such a clerk there--a man who understands all the latest vocabulary, prices and descriptious adopted by the War Office, and it is the same with every other class of goods, textile fabrics, and so forth.
24. That may be perfectly true, but at the same time would it not be possible to have someone who had to keep in the closest relationship with tho Colonies, because I have heard the criticisin outside by high officials that you are so wooden. It seems to me that the explanation of that is that there is just that lack It is not want of local information; we have got as much of that as we want. I quite under- stand the feeling which is behind that expression "wooden" it nicans red tape, and it means certain Government formalities which outsiders think are not necessary, and even Government officials rebel against them sometimes, but you will find that, wooden as it may seem, then is always a regulation behind it. which has not been adopted without a great deal of consideration
The witness withdrew.
Adjourned to Friday, next at fulf-past ten o'clock.
ELEVENTH DAY,
Friday, 17th July, 1908.
At the Colonial tiffic, Downing Street.
PRESENT.
COLONEL J. E. B. SEELY, D.8.0., M.P. (Chairman),
The Rt. Hon. Sir F. MowaTT, G.C.B., 1.8.0.
Sir RALPH MOOR. K.C.M.G.
II. J. GIBSON, Esq., C.B.
R. BAILEY, Esq., M.V.O., 1.S.U.
Nir ALBERT SPICED, Bart., M.P. S. M. Levtring_bs| C. A. HARBIs, Esq., C.B., C.M.G.
A. J. HARDING (Secretary),
Mr. H. D. LA BAKE, R., callest and examined.
2265. (Chairman.) As you are aware we are investi- gating the Crown Agents Office. You do similar work in the War Office in seine respects, and perhaps you would kindly tell us broadly what your work is at the War Other and how long you have been dong itBroadly. I am the purchasing slicer at the War Office. I have been in the War Office, 1 suppose, about 27 years, but not in that particular Department for any great length of time.
122966, Voubt you tell us how your staff is recruiled? Under ordinary Civil Service conditions,
2266. In point of fact, do you find that by getting your staff in that way you get people of ordinary in telligence and capacity - Yes, it has never occurresi to nie that they should be obtained in any other way.
22207, (Su Pinuris Moraft,) Does your staff consist of some of the Upper Division and some of the Second
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. H. DE LA BÈRE, C.B.
ITU
Division 1 can tell you exactly what the staff is. am in charge and I have a principal clerk, an assistant principal, and an acting assistant principal you might say two assistant principals perhaps.
all 2968, (Mr. Giban.) Those practically recruited from the Higher Division? Yes. In addi- tion to that I usually have a young Higher Division clerk attached as a learner; he comes in for a year or two and then goes out into the rest of the office. Then in the Second Division grade there are four chief examiners, three staff clerks, and 22 Second Division, and then there comes 11 abstractors, who are a lower grade by themselves.
2269. They are assistant clerks?--Yes, they are a grade below the Second Division.
2270, (Mr. Leathes.) You have not any of the same class they have in the Ordnance Factories, what they call junior appointments between the Second Division and Upper Division? No; in the War Ottice the staff which is recruited in that way is the Army Accounts Department, but they do not come into my Depart- ment at all.
2271. (Sir Francis Mowatt.) You mentioned four otties rs la fore you came to the Second! Division. Are cy staff officers of the Second Division:-Four chief examiners who are recruited from Second Division men and three staff clerks who are also promoted Second Division men.
1972. (Chairman.) Could you tell us the salaries?-- The abstractors run, I think, from about £55 to £100 year; the Second Division is the ordinary cond Hivision scale beginning at £70 and in time mounting up to £300; the stuff clerks from £350 to £150; and
chief examiners £150 16 £500,.
2973. (Sir Francis Mooraft.) The chief examiners, ya say, an promoted from the Second Division? - Y... The Higher Division clerk is on the ordinary War Office Higher Division scale, £150 to £500; the assistant principals are from £60 to £560, the prin
pai from £850 to £1,000, and say own salary is £1,200.
2974. (Chairman.) Will you tell us what the nature of the work is and the volume of it--Practically I m the pureliasing officer for every supply which is purelinsoil at Headquarters, that is to say, at the War A very large number of our contracts are entered into in commands—the contracts for supplies, fr forage, and for fuel are enteres into in commands, and my responsibility with regard to them is, with Some sxceptions, limited to seeing that the forms in use are revised from time to time and in accordance with the preserila rules, It is also intended that ift acceptance the actual tenders shall be passed to the War Ciffice for review. As regards the Hea iquarters' purchases they cover a very wide aren in lees': I can give you a list of them if you like - the type of things. 2275. The type of things will be quite sufficient ?--- Armaments, Ordnance Factory contracts (machinery, steel, fron and coal). Ordnance stores (barrack stores ind that sort of thing), works, building materials. clothing. leather, textiles, and sales of all descriptions. As I say. for the supplies, forage, provisions, and fuel, the contracts an mainly entered into in the districts. hut the coal contracts come up to the War tice for acceptance, and they are very carefully gone through in my branch in connection with the military branch concerned.
2276. (Sir Francis Mfuwati.) The ordinary store sup- plies required by the troops in the field, as in South Africa, for instance, come within your Department' - Entirely. That would come under the accoutrements
rnance sturs.
$277. (Mr. Gilson.) There is always a certain bunited power of local purchase ? That is very small inched-only about £50.
1278. (Chairman.) You prnetically buy for †e whole Army except such things as forage and fuel? Yes, and over those I have a certain amount of control.
2270. (Sir Francis Mowatt.) Might 1 ask how does the demand reach you? Take a demand for anything
111
[17 July 1998.
you like, for instance, saddlery; that comes from what Department?The process is this: Demands come to me from the Department of the Director who if he wants 10,000 administers the vote affectel. sets of saddlery he sends in a demand to me.
2280. (Chairman.) Who would he be?-As a rule, unless it is something very important, it does not come through the actual officer at headquarters; it comes through the officer in charge of the Store Department at Woolwich Arsenal; he would send it on to me.
2281. The order might come originally from South Africa, could it?-Certainly; under the ordinary sys- tem of indents, from South Africa, or anywhere. All stations where there are troops all demand on Woul- wich.
2282. (Mr. Baily.) Do you know. whence the demand emanates? No, I have no knowledge of that at all, because, of course, the officer in charge at Wool. wich has a stock and he supplies what he can out of his stock. If he cannot supply ho demands from me; he sends in a requisition form to me, and then I issue tenders to the firms on the list; in course of time ten- ders come in, and are received and considered in con- junction with the requisitioning officer.
5283, (Sir Ralph Moor.) His requisition. then, is for store rather than for direct issue?-As a rule, it would be, undoubtedly, but we are spenking now of such things as saddlery. For works, of course, the re- quisition would be for a service to be immediately per- formed.
2284. (Chairman.) Do these come from everywhere where the Army is except in India?-Yes, they all draw from Woolwich.
2285. D.
India-Not except froin any cume through the India Office-not direct. Both the India Offic and the Admiralty, to a certain extent, and some of the Colonial Governments order through us.
9286. The Colonial Governments do?-The self- governing Colonies very often order through us for war material.
2257, (Mr. Gibson.) That is practically limited to arms and ammunition 7-Yes, but that is a very large item in our purchases.
1998. (Sir Francis Moratt.) Have you any discre tion or control in the case of an order to go back to saddlery for an instant, would it be within your pro- vinee to call attention to improvements in saddlery? -Do you mean as regards pattern?
2280). Yes.--I have no responsibility for pattern or for specification; that is entirely a matter for the re- quisitioning officer; he is responsible for the correct- ness of that. My function in regard to that is limited to this that if I considered a pattern on his list noteriously closelete or notoriously expensive, then it would be my duty to point it out to him, but if he does not choose to take any notice of my remarks it is quite open to him to do so.
9990. (Chairman.) About what is the total amount you deal with in a year?-The headquarters contracts come out to about 53 millions and the command con- tracts to about 2 millions.
2201. Those command contracts you supervise, but you do not actually deal with is that it?-Yes. In future I shall have to review them.
2202. How do you place these orders?-- As a rule our orders are placed by competition among firms on a selected list; every year we advertise the general_m- quirements of the Ariny and we invite firms to tender, or rather to come on the list for tender.
9293. You issue an advertisement every year asking We have about firms to come on the list --Yes. 10.000 firms on the list altogether, but, of course, they do not all compete for one particular service. Our list is a very broad one, and practically we put every- body on the list who appears to be a competent con- tractor.