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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE
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C.O.885
19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON
ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO
101
13 July 1.
CROWN AGENTS PNQUIRY COMMITTEE:
Mr. W. II. MERGER. C.M.G.
1. 11 you do that I do not see that this custom does strike at the rod; is that the accepted view of the vilice ?---When I say a lawyer with a brief, 1 mean a conscientious lawyer.
2129 Surely you and 1 being both in the profession Know that that is the same thing I think i modities 1f1 should comes over the position torn slight extent. here to discuss a thing with the Colonial Office, and so almost every day of my practically I am dong life. I try in the first instance to take the view of the Colonial Government. They know the facts better than I do. and at any rate they have a certain wish in the matter. I try to impress that upon the Colonial Ofice. I am not trying the case myself; I am acting as their agent. At the same time if the Colonial Office showed mne proper objections 1 hope I would appreciate them and state them to the Colony,
2130, Mr. Harris.) Ate you not, in answering the Chairman, making a constitutional ship? I mean, when & matter comes before the Secretary of State is not the whole interest of the particular Colony always repre- sented by the Secretary of State, who is really the final pinnacle of the Crown Colony Govermgent? Are you therefore any more than one alviser où one side, the Governor being another adviser on the other side. and possibly the Colonial Secretary somewhere else, and so on? But constitutionally it makes all the difference in the world; the Secretary of State is the pinnacle of the system. but under what, authority? Simply his power to dismiss; he has power to appoint and power to distuss, at any rate all the superior executive officers in the Crown Colonies, and that is his whip hand so to speak, but he has no constitutional power tale any executive act. He may appoint a Governor, but he cannot exercise the power of a
Governor.
2131. (Chairman.) I will only ask you two ques- First of all I would tions, because we must get d ask you is your view that you are advocates of the Crown Colony in such cases as those, which of course We know are of very frequent occurrence, the generally accepted view of the Crown Agents" Offies, or is it y your own personal view I am only expressing my personal view, and it is not a question upon which I can absolutely comant my edleagues, because we bave never discussed it formally, but 1 certainly think that the general spirit in which the office is now almuistered.
2132. The send question is, as far as you know, are the Crown Colonies, both Government and people. 1 that the impression which awar of that view?
btain there as far as you know? I think it is; it ertainly is amongst the officials who are in the Of course, they are very halet of coming to see us.
2133. But the people--because there are a great many people besides the official do you think they know of this?--I should not think they have any par tjentar opinion one way or the other as a rub.
2131. I am afraid that is not the case at all; they take great interest in the question. You do not know if they realise that point of view; I do not know and ask you?--Of course, I quite understand that we are frequently attacked both in large and in Small Colones; but so is the Colonial Government. is the Colonial Office, and so is the Secretary of
I do not think there is any general impres State sion in any of the Crown Colonies that we, as frown Your are in conflict with the Colonial Government 17--18 The attacks which are administered an ad-
ministered impartially upon all parties,
2137 You do not think there is a strong view that the Crown Agents (we are not dealing with the attacks at the way in which business is conducted, but with This e-sustitutional point, which is of the utmost im- puran act as masters and not as servants, because f they d this power to its full extent they would le catuplete masters? --I do not think there is any real pinion to that effect. Of course the consuleration has often occurred to my mind. Is the attacks in Colonial newspapers, and certainly it would wom at first sight that there is an impression in some of
the Colous that we purport to be the masters of the Colonial Governments.
2136. With the var of the Secretary of State? You.
I do not think that impression is a real one; I think it is a journaliste one which is kept up for purposes. of attack. I have frequently put this very question to Colomal officials who have been kind enough to call upon me, and I have asked them whether these attacks carry any influence, and they one and all have assured me ilat ndly thinks anything of them. course. I am only referring to a special kimi of journalistic enterprise in the Colonies.
DI
2137. With regard to the relations of the Crown Agents with other employees of the Crown Colonies in this country, that does not so very greatly coBOY THE US, but you say any Crown Colony may (subject to the approval of the Secretary of State) appoint a repre- sentative at home for a necessary special, purpose. Ege a doctor or an engineer; but if they do tog do so, it usually falls to the Crown Agents to make a recom mendation. The person appointed beomes, ad hoc, an offeral of the Colony, but there is no permanent contract, and if the Colony is dissatisfied with time selection they can cease to employ him and can, if they wish ask for another selection.
The Crown
Agents themselves are not technical experts in this scle, and are wo more responsible for the work of the experts than the other executive officers resident in the Colony, They are in the same position in this respect as a storykeeper or other head of a buying department in a Colony who buys locally or in the neighbourhood. This principle covers the cases of all consulting engines and inspectors; in the latter case, however. "the work is in some (the most substantial instances closely connectes with the purchase of stores that it has been found desirable to carry it out as far as possible by the officers who are directly under the supervision of the Crown Agents, and in this case the Crown Agents assume the whole responsibility. this step has resulted in improved efficiency-for in- stane, casts of machinery and clothing. It is fairly arguable whether the principle of this innovation night not be carried further, eg, a railway enginer appointal; in some ways it would be more convenient. but it would be more difficult to deal with complaints and the work might at any time fall of. The latter part of the paragraph is, of course, of special' im- portance: what would you like to tell us about it? In your general view. I suppe it is desirable not to carry it further may premise, sir. that in many cases public opinion identifies the Crown Agents with the sulting engineers and I wanted to make it quite clear that we merely appoint vousulting en- gineers, le cause we have to do so, the Colonial Goverti; ments not making any appointment. If the Colonial Governments made the appointments we should have nothing to do and a thing to say in the matter. When the sulting enginer is appointed he is entirely responsible for whatever work is given to him by the Colonial Government; we are simply the mustium of communication, but, as I say, public opinion does identify w to a certain extent with the consulting engineers, and it is a practical factor of which we have to take notise,
2138. Sometimes you are responsible; in what cases are those?-Not in connection with any technical h-tails,
2139. Take the Jamaica Railway, for instanesi We were not responsible at all.
2110. But yon pad?-We had to.
2111. Why did you pay? Because we were order
12 do so by the Secretary of State.
2112. In your view the Secretary of State was wrong and you were right? Certainly. May I submit the facts very shortly }
ha-
2143. Yes. - The order in question was for certain rolling stock, and it came to us, not from the Pokonal Government, as orders usually do, but from the Colonial whenever Now, Colonial Office.
is the prae- order it Government gives us an
the amount which either tice to Klate
the amount
which they to cost. The letter from the Colonial Öffice did not follow this excellent example; it did not state the amount appropriated. and it gave no estimate. On the face of it, it left the discretion to us. There was at the time a con-
been appropriated ur estimate the things ought
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. W. H. MER ER, C.MIG,
sulting engineer to the Jamaica Government, and we ferred the order to hita. He ordered the rolling stock, ami in dite evatese the rolling stock was supe plied and went out. When it went out and the Government received the bill, they found that the cost excvilish their estimate. The Simple Splanation is that we know nothing about that estimate: it had not been given to us by the Colonial (lice. When the Hong was ge via there was a goal agitation the subget," "beause the Jamaica Government clanned kamages for the excessive supply, and the question was who was responsible? The Colonial Office blamed five grounil that about a year k fere the same ensulting engineer had gue and brushi had nad vertain recommendat pos which incind of an esta
at for this rolling stock. As a matter of fnet I bebeve that that report was never approved, and ins recommendations were to a certain extent criticises. My position is that we look simply at the order given
us, and there was no estivente given.
Jamateu
2141, (Sir Ralph Moor.) Was there no sparification ? There was u speification; it was left entirely to the winsulting engines r. Then when the Jamaica
• Punent complained, the Secretary of State, I have dou found us. If in rather an etabarrassiHE position, and what he did was that he censured the Colonial Office for ngrettable oversight, he severely censured the Colonial Government, he dismissed the ensalting engineer, and he find the Crown Agents.
2115, te kareeman, We do not want to go into al great length, and the eason 1 brought up this pant was because in the ears of your evidence you sand that you weg met responsible in the case of a consulting engine 1. It refine asked you alont Are we take it that in the view of the Crown Agents you are not responsibile, bint as far as cases are established the Scentáry of State woubl make you pay --No, I think the Jamaica case was a very exceptional case, As yell Sað, sir, it is perhaps not advisable to go more into it, although I might say a good deal more, but I think the principle is perfectly Clear: we have to carry out the instructions which are given to us, whether by the Seentury of State or the Colonial Government 15 a matter of too impor- tate But if we make any mistake ourselves aš to thos instructions we are liable; for instance, sup- posing the Colonial (heo on this breasion had said tus rolling stock was to eat £5,000, then if the cust "And materially • secrodel that certainly we shombi have bevu liable for negligenes, but in this case my point Is that on the face of this order no estimate was given, and tla reform the whole thing was left to the consulting engineer. In that case we are not respon- sible for any amount if the Colonial Office or the fiovernments give us the amount; clearly that con- sideration does not come in; but if we had given a wrong order and this thing had occurred. 14 have some small" instances which illustrate the principle the Colonial Government orders one thing, and we supply another, giving the wrong order to the manufacturer, an a case like that we should be liable and we ought
pay, and we do.
1
2146, (Sir Francis Mowatt.) I think the example you have just given illustrates the question
consi- pat to you just now, and which you den rather academic. In this you bong the Agents of the Colony, the Secretary of State for the Colonies directes you to take a step which, in the view of the Colony, was injurions to the Colony, and the result of that was, that from their point of view you had gone outside your province as their agent, and you had to pay damages in conse quence? In a case like that the Secretary of State acts as the agent of the Colonial Government.
2147, (Chairman.) When the Secretary of State bea comes the agent, what do you become? He is agent for one purpose the purpose of giving the order, and We are the agent for another purpose that of receiv- ag it.
214. (Sir Francis Moraff. And as that class of sent you have to pay the damages, and not he? White so. for the simple reason that the Secretary of State would have to go to Parliament and get a Vote if he wanted any tuoney.
v 21
1
105
[B July 190,
2119. (Sir Ralph Moor.) In your Jamaica case it was on the examate of the consulting engineer that the order was given by the beal Government! -Very likely.
2150. And you allowed the consulting engineer to ex ved the estimate: But we did not know what th.. estitamle Wad
2151. I had made an estimate the year before fur He submittel vertain this material. I think you said: revanmendations, but we have nothing to do with
These remmendations.
2152. II. salamatted pertain recommendations of an estimate. I think you sand, the year before? He may have done so; I lidteve he did.
2153. You were not eognisant of thow at all? Sir Montagu Ommandey was personally; the office was
not.
2151. The Crown Agent was cognisant of the revon- mendations and of the estimate, and having got the oler allowed the estimate to be exceeded 3--- It is quite true an estimate had been given by the consulting engineer when he made a visit of inspection t Jamara the year before, but that report hæl never leen approved or awepted; whatever his estimate was. it was not official or final. What ought to have been communiented to us was the estimate of the Colon 2,4" Government at the time the order was given, and we never got it.
2155. (Sir Francis Mowatt.) The two estimates wer: not lentical -- 1 do not know.
2156. Was tim estimate of the Colonial Government. as you subsequently ascertained it, identical with the estimate of the consulting engineer?- I do not think in was: 1 think it was rather higher.
9157. (Mr. Rihan.) Yon take the line with ngand to the temporary outside unspéctors you employ than you are not responsible for their mistakes!-That
sin,
2158. Qua the Colony, that is not satisfactory. They do not know whether you appoint a man from your staff to do the work or a man from outside? -1 quite ngrew with you.
2150. You are attempting to remedy that by increas ing your permanent establishment! Yes. From the technical point of view we say we are not responsible for mistakes made by the teclinical men, whether con- sulting engineers or inspectors, but we quite recognise that from the point of view of the Colony they look at the net result, and we want to make the whole thing work satisfactorily. We find, putting aside the strict constitutional aspect of the matter, that the thing is lætter done by our really supervising these inspectors. In the old days we used to go to inspectors with great names, and we used to find that in some cases they put the work out. That was clearly unsatisfactory, anl we had no real supervision over it. In all cases where we can practically do so, we have now taken over that inspection with the supervision and the responsibility attaching to it.
260. (Charisman.) Is the supervising done by gentle men of your permanent establishment or by people engaged on the job?--We put them on the permanent establishment whenever we can find them continuous work att if the work is of a kind that only occurs now and then, as, for instance, chemical analyses of certain products, in that case we go to an outside authority.
2161. But you still regard him as one of your own men during the tenure of his appointment: is that it? No, he is not on our staff at all; we pay him a fee for the job.
2162. Des that make a difference in the responsi- ility Yes, I think so, because he is not a member of our staff in any sense.
It seems
2163. How does that help the Colony ? rather hard on the Colony that in the one case they see that Smith is supervising the work, and they ascer tain that you are responsible with all the prestige and funds of your office on another occasion they find Jones supervising the work, and naturally they assumo it is the same ense; but you say, "Oh, nu; it so
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