MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE
Reference :-
C.O.885
19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE,
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| ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH—NOT TO
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2 July 1908.
„CROWN AGENTS' ENQUIRY COMMITTEE:
Major M. A. Camzнos, C.M.G.
When the Crown Agent who deals with financial matters is away, I suppose you are acting occasionally in sole charge?--Yes.
1538. You told the Chairman just now that you did not deal with tinancial matters, but there might be some immediate question coming up in the absence of the Crown Agent who really dealt with that Depart- ment. Would you have efficient help in the office which would enable you to deal with that?—I have got the heads of Departments.
1539. And would you find them helpful in working up a question which cane suddenly upon you ?-Cer- tainly.
1540, (Mr. Gibson.) Take the head of your Engineer- ing Inspection Branch. Mr. Heath, might I ask what are his services, and how he was obtained?-He was originally appointed in the office as head of the Works Department when the previous head retired in 1900. He was obtained by inquiry among engineers. His training was first of all with Sir Alexander Rendel as an inspector for a good many years, and then after tha: he was chief assistant to Mr. Carruthers, who was consulting engineer for New South Wales and Queens- land, and does a great deal of practice. He was his chief assistant, and had entire control of his staff and work generally, and of his inspection work. He came to us as head of the Works Department, and served ia that position for about four years, and then when we formed the Inspection Department I considered him quite the best possible man for it; I ascertained from Sir Alexander Rendel and Mr. Carruthers, both of whom I know well personally, that I could not possibly do better in their view than put him in, and he was appointed accordingly,
1541. Would the ordinary practice be to bring your deputy or junior inspectors in and work them up? -The thing is now, but that is what we should hope to do.
1542. Inasinach as you started this Engineering inspection Branch, or extended it very largely lately.
from what source generally do you get your juniors?
That we leave altogether to the chief inspec tor, and he gets them largely from the railways. He gets them in all directions. From his former inspecting experience in these appointments he knew a great many men, and some of these came to him; he is also constantly getting a number of applications, and selects them according to what is required.
1543. You consider that is preferable to getting them from some recognised source such as by regular examination, some technical examination of which there are a good many going under the Civil Service Commissioners 7--7he inspectors are so much a matter of personal selection that I think it is preferable on the whole.
1544. (Mr. Lathes.) I would like to ask you whether you see any reason why your Department should be regarded as more of a commercial concern than, for instance, the Office of Works or the Post Office. Do not the same problems arise in all three cases? They do, but you must remember that the Office of Works and the Post Office are Imperial Government Depart- ments spending Imperial Government money. We are spending the money of the Colonial Governments entirely and that makes a very great difference in principle. If the system under which an Imperial Government Department works is not quite ideal, it is What the British taxpayer who imposes the system.
is good in it he gains by, and what is bad in it he pays for, and, at any rate, it is all his affair. and is all out of the same pocket.
1545, (Mr. Bailey,) Does not the same thing apply very much to the Crown Colonies?-No, because the Crown Colonies have each their own revenue; we are spending the money of the Crown Colonies, and our primary duty is towards them.
1546, You mean as distinguished from the Imperial Government?- Certainly; we have no duties towards the Imperial Government as such in the actual execu- tion of our work,
The witness withdrew.
Adjourned to Monday next at half-past 19 o'clock,
EIGHTH DAY,
Monday, 6th July, 1908.
At the Colonial Office, Downing Street.
PRESENT:
COLONEL J. E. B. SEELY, D.S.O., M.P. (Chairman),
The Rt. Hon. Sir F. MowaTT, G.C.B., 1.8.0.
Sir RALPH Moon, K.C.M.G.
H. J. GIBSON, Esq., C.B.
Sir ALBERT SFICER, Bart., M.P. R. BAILEY. Esq., M.V.O., I.8.0. C. A. HARRIS, Esq., C.B., C.M.G.
A. J. HARDING (Secretary).
Sir C. P. Lucas, K.C.ALG., C.B., called and examined.
1547. (Chairman.) I do not think all the Committee know how it is that you come to have special knowledge of this matter, but I think I am right in saying that, although now you are Head of the Dominions Depart ment, under the old organisation you were Head of the Department which dealt with all the Eastern Colonies?-All the Eastern and West Indian; those were my two departments.
1648. Who, of course, have very large dealings with the Crown Agents 7-Yes
1540. I have got here a short list of questions I have to ask you. If you would kindly follow those. I have worked them out as well as I could.
1550. This is the first question: You have, I sup- pose, in the course of your service, had some consider- rible experience of the working of the Crown Agents' Department? Have you formed any opinion as to the results obtained by the office? Is your opinion of its working on the whole favourable or the contrary?— I have formed a very high opinion indeed of the work
Sir ('. P. Lucas, K.C.M.G., C.B.
done by the Crown Agents. I had the main hand in making the first draft of this despatch which you have seen which sums up the matter.
1551, Mr. Chamberlain's despatch, you mean?—Yes, and I think these are my words: 1 consider this system has beyond question worked well for the Crown Colonies, and if the whole range of the business- commercial, financial, and miscellaneous-is taken into account, I consider it has worked exceedingly well. The Crown Agents have, in my opinion, by able, upright, and single-minded service, deserved the confidence alike of the Governments of the Crown Colonies and of successive Secretaries of State." I want, if you will allow me, to emphasise that as the very honest and strong opinion which I hold. It does not mean that do not hold that criticisms could be made, but 1 do hold that the Crown Agents for the Colonies have been a very great asset to the Crown Colonies. I wanted to point out that the Crown Agents" Office is a double compromise, and, to my mind, always must be 80. It is, and it always must be, it seems 19 me, half a commercial office and half a Government office, and therefore it is open to attack on either side. If you compare it with a Government office you can point out that it is irregular in different ways, that is to say, the men are not selected by open competi- tion, and so forth. If you compare it with a commer- cial office you can point out that it is more under red tape and less flexible. It is not a commercial office, because it is not a set of partners or men making their living by the profits of their business. It is not a Government office, because it deals entirely with city business, and must be, to my mind, to a certain extent, on commercial lines. It is a compromise in a second sense in that the Crown Agents are the agents for the Crown Colonies and the Crown Colonies are under the Secretary of State, Strictly speaking, the Secretary of State and the Crown Colony Governments ought to be one. Well, they are human, and they are not always one. Strictly speaking, the Crown Agents »ught to take orders entirely from the Crown Colony Governments.
I
10 July 1908,
If a
drug to be procured through their own people. Government has agents in England, I hold that you must have an inflexible rule that all things that are wanted from England must come through them; it is no use having agents if they are sumetimes to be employed and sometimes not.
1652. What is the rule (to interrupt you for a moment) in an ordinary commercial affair? A com- mercial firm, let us say, in Australia has agents in
England, how does that compare?—I am afraid 1 do
not know.
1553. You say you think it is essential that if they have agents at all those agents should have sole power to order here?--I think so.
1554. And that is what they do in point of fact, so that we have had evidence to the effect that the Crown Agents are masters and not agents, because they assert that power completely of ordering here as they please. Now, in a commercial business would that be the same, do you suppose?—I do not think a commercial firm in Australia would pay an agent in England and not use him for all the things they want from England. Otherwise it is not much uso paying him.
(Sir Albert Spicer,) If I might add to that, a com mercial firm in Australia would keep their agent informed as to the offers they received on the spot, and they would keep their agent here in touch with what they had offered and the firms who were offering, (Mr. Gibton.) There is no reason why the Colonial Government should not do precisely the same; they can inform the Crown Agents of any advantageous offer they may have of obtaining materials and supplies on the spof.
(Witness.) ↑ think you will fin 1 that has been pretty much the case; it goes without saying, in fact.
a
case
1555. (Sir Francis Moratt.) In stating the impor tance, the necessity, in fact, of employing the Crown Agents exclusively, should you say that no discretion should be left to the Colonial Governor to say: in which I strongly suggest that this, that, or the other should be bought on the spot "7-No, I should not, but it depends upon what bought on the spot" is. Say that the Governor of Ceylon wants a thing from England, do you call that buying it on the spot? It has come from England.
1556. No. 1 should not call that buying it on the spot. That is the point I am at; these gentlernen are agents for articles that are required from England or from Europe. Of course, if you want a thing in a minute and a local man has gut it in stock” from England, you buy it, but if you want to have your year's supply and so forth. if it is to come from England it should come from the Colony's Agent in England.
1557. But only if it comes from England. I ask the question for this reason, that one of our witnesses suggested to us that it was regarded as rather a harl- ship in the Colony that where some material was required for the carrying out of a contract which tho Governor was of opinion could be perfectly well sup *plied on the spot, the Colony objected to the rule of the Crown Agents to get whatever they wanted in this country, and that they were not disposed to be influenced by the requisitions of the Colonial Governor 1-Again. I am very sorry, but what is bethering me is whether the article is a thing that can be made in the Colony or not-cement, for in-
"Here is In the circular which followed this despatch which Mr. Lyttelton signed, my own strong view was, and they adopted it largely, to try and put the Crown Agents more and more under the Crown Colony Governments, but the Crown Colony Govern- ments are at a distance and the Secretary of State is here on the spot, and so the necessary result is to put the Crown Agents in a position that is not quite that of the Agents simply and solely of the Crown Colony Governments, that is to say, they can refer and must 40 occasions refer to the Secretary of State, aut the Secretary of State has the ordering of them in the long run. So that the point want to put before the Committee, although I am putting it rather clumsily, is that there sa sort of dual position; they are not quite, and I do not see how they over can be, although I should make them as much as possible, in the position of ordinary business agents of the Crown Colony Govern- tuents, simply and solely taking the orders of the Crown Colony Governments. That, I think, has cum- plicated the position very much. Now I wanted. if the Committee will allow me, to take one or two causes of prejudice, as 1 have called it, against the Crown Agents. The first is that obviously there is and always will be commercial jealousy of them both here and in the Colonies. I think I am right in saying that the Crown Agents have a list of firms who are invited to tender. As far as I can judge I think they are right. I think that if the tendering was always thrown open by public advertisement you would make it more complicated and cause a great deal of unnecessary work. I think if you pick out the best firms and adi to them perpetually, probably you will get the best system, but you have, I take it (I am talking without recent knowledge), còmmercial jealousy over here on the part of those who are not asked to tender, and then you have strong commercial jealousy in the Colonies. The local merchants who have agents in London, in England, want the local Governments to employ them and their agents in England, and then you have the travelling agents (it has constantly come up of commercial firms in England visiting the Colonies, and I think I am right in saying very often meeting the heads of departments, say, the head of the medical department, and suggesting this or that
e 21
stance.
1558. Tako first a thing that can be supplied?—If it is supplied but not made in the Colony it comes from some agent in England, and, as I say, I think it is ridiculous for a Colony to pay for having an agent in England, and then to employ somebody else's agent.
1559, (Chairman.) He only pays for the things he gets, does he not? The Crown Agents only begin to be paid by him when he orders through them; if he tid not order through them he would not pay anything ar all-Yes, but they are paid a fixed sum too; if you do not employ men—if you have men and they are merely nominal-they become less efficient, `and, further, there are a good many other points which you will not want me to trouble you with, but the Crown Agents have a very regular system of inspection, and
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