PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE
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CHILE C.O.885
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19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON
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2 July 1906.
CROWN AGENTS' EXQUIRY COMMITTEE:
Mujor M. A. CAMERON, C.M.G.
1356. And no others?—I think no others; no other railway ones at present.
1357. How do you decide which consulting engineer to apply to say there is a railway projected in Some Colony-We should consider it in each case. For instance, in Ceylon, as Gregory, Eyles and Waring have been for many years the consulting engineers. we should go to them, but in the case of a now Colony it would depend upon the amount of work that they had in their hands perhaps, and whether we coti- wider s the suitable generally.
135. If they are equally suitable you try to share the work amongst this list ?-But we do not limit our- elves to that list; at any moment if we thought it desirable we might adopt another consulting engineer.
1359. And go outside that list-Yes, we are not in any way bound to that list; there is no arrange- ment with them of any kim that we should use them only not in the lighust--but you naturally do go to firm which has worked with you.
1360, (Me, Gilrsan. Do other firms apply from time to time to be put upon your list ?-Not consulting engineers.
1361. (Mr. Bailey.) Do you ever go outside that list as a matter of fact-The list has grown. Sir John Wolfe Barry has not been very long on it; we went outside it in employing him. In some other matters, in connection with water works, we have gone re- cently to Mild ton Hunter. and Duff, whom we never employel Lefore, and from time to time, when w think there is any cause for it, we enter into arrangements with a new consulting engineer. There is nothing fixed about it.
1362. (Chairman.) As to this list that we have here, first of all there are consulting engineers for railways, harbour works, water and sanitary works, telegraphs and electric lighting, military stores, and then there are consulting architects, and consulting naval archi- teets. Here they are in a complete list. I suppose this is information which the people who compile this look have obtained from you; is it a Government publication-No.
1363. We understand that this is not a fixed list; you generally do employ these people, but sometimes you go elsewhere. Let us continue the story; the consulting engineer makes a report and that port goes to whom?-That report is generally sent to the Colonial Office; and set out to the Colony,
1351 To the governor?—Yes, to the governor, and at may be more or less discussed. The Colony may not agr prhaps with the modifications, and it is discussed until it comes to an understanding as to what shall be done.
1345. B-twen the consulting engineers and the Government?—Yes. Ther may surveys to be made; not unfrequently it is missary to end out surveyors to go over the line before the r·port takes final shape. It depends very much on the indi- vidual circumstances.
13. And then when it is finally agreed?—It is ventually sanctioned by the Secretary of State for w.ution.
1367. And then?—The usual process has ben to instruct the Crown Agents to take the necessary st-ps to carry it out.
1363 What happens then ?—It varies to some ex- tent for instance, in the Malay States where they have managed to k vp construction going continu ously for a number of years, they constructed it with their own men. They have a chief resident “engineer ther who has been many years with them, and a staff whom they have trained up. and they do the construction themselves reporting what they do to the consulting engineers. As a matter of fact the esident engineer writes direct to the consulting enginers, passing his letters through the Colonial Government and through our office, so that we may both be informed, and he carries on the construction.
1369, That is the resident engineer of the Colony?— Of the Colony, yes.
1370, Appointed by the Government and Council, I suppos-I suppose he is; I do not know exactly, I doubt if he has got a definite appointment; it has grown up.
1371. We have here in the same excellent work in- Malay scribed: "Straits Settlements-Federated States-Chief Resident Engineer for construction— G. W. Fryer" with a salary of £1,000 to £1,200. He is apparently on the establishment of the Malay States. Is that exceptional or is there in most cases an engineer of that kind?-In a good many cases the lias not been a resident engineer; in that case one has been selected by the consulting engineers, and sent but under an agreement with the Colonial Govern ment for the work.
1372. You selected G. W. Fryer? I am afraid 1 cannot tell you how he originally got there; probably we did.
He has been there for a good many years
NOW.
1873, (Mr. Gibson.) You probably recommended him to the Secretary of State for the Colonies?—I could not say that specially about Mr. Fryer.
1374. But whether you recommende him or not, such an appointment would have to receive the approval of the Secretary of State like any other Colonial servant? Yes. I might say that when wo have once sent out a man like Mr. Fryer, whom we tmay have sent out a good many years ago, we lose sight of the terms of his employment cominonly; if the Colony appoints him permanently the probability is we should never hear of it, or only incidentally, perhaps.
1375. (Chairman.) But he carries out the work in this case, if there be such a man Yes.
1376. Does he do all the inspection ?-He is responsible entirely for it. Before he was employed as a resident engineer, he being already in the Colony, his name was submitted to the consulting engineers to know if they thought him competent, and they agreed to his employment, and he has been in charge
since.
1377. Then, of course, the work is done, and all inspection is done on the spot ?—It is entirely done un the spot.
1378. Do the consulting engineers pass it-They do not go out there to pass it usually: the Governor and the Colonial officers see to that. They have got a man they thoroughly believe in, and they leave him to do it.
1379. Suppose that does not happen-there are several gentlemen here with special knowledge of this subject who will ask you questions presently--but to conclude the plain tale of what happens broadly, supposing there was not an engineer of this type like Mr. Fryer, what do you do then Then the consult ing engineers recommend an engineer to us and we appoint him, that is to say, he enters into an agre- ment with us, as agents, on behalf of the Colonial Government.
1380, For the job?—Yes, he is the servant of the Colonial Government by an agreement, but gets his technical instructions, that is to say, everything to d with width of formation, ballast, the sections of the line, ant all those matters from the consulting engineers, the Colony dealing with him as with any That other temporarily employed officer of its own. is what was done in the case of the Straits Settle- ments Railway; there was nobody there and the pro- rosal was to carry it out by the Public Works Department. That was not sporoved by the Secre- tary of State; they had no experience of railway work
and an engineer was sent out.
1341, (Mr. Baileg.) You are referring to the Singa- pore railway-Yes, as an example of what takes place when there is no qualifier résident engineer in The Colony.
13×2, (Chairman.) The Government there said "We would like to construct this railway "'?—Yes.
19. But it was decided that there being no person on the spot suitable, it could not be done in that way. aud that we should send a man from here?—Yes.
13. Then it was decided by whom-By the Secre tary of State on the recommendation of the Crown Agents.
1385. On the advice tendered him by the Crown Agents as the result probably of their consultation with the consulting engineers?—Yes.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Major M. A. CAMERON, 'C.M.G.
1356. Special consulting engineers being called in for the purpose-Yes, they were the same consulting engineers as for the Malay States Railways.
187. Because you thought they know most about it?--Yes, and were on the spot.
1358. Have you a committee of consulting engineers to advise you on general questions of that kind, or de you call in a particular firm in each case-A particular firm in each case.
1381. Does the same kind of story apply almost exactly to harbour works or anything of that kind? To a few large works; to harbour works it does apply practically, and it is applied to a few large drainage works or waterworks, but very few. There have not Harbour works are, of been many carried out.
ourse, entirely special; that is a more special branch of engineering than railway engineering.
18h), On the whole do you consider this plan gives satisfaction to the Colonies, and works well?—Which method do you mean?
1391. Either?-The_method in which they employ their own men is, so far as I know, quite satisfactory to them when they have got a man they believe în themselves. The method of sending out a man cer- tamly did not work satisfactorily to the Colony in the case of the Straits.
1392, Singapore?—That is so,
1302. We heard from one of the witnesses that it did not; but why in your judgment did it not?—There is no doubt that the man did not prove quite the best man for the purpose. He was a man of extremely god experience, and there was every reason to think that he would be absolutely satisfactory, but in fact he was not, I think, quite a strong enough man in character to answer the criticisms on the spot, and he got frightened and did not announce the full ex- esses which were coming on and did not quite be as well as he might have done. I think that the fovernment were also very largely to blame in that they stood by and did not try to make the system „work. Of course, it is obvious" it cannot work unless The Government cordially makes up its mind that it
-hall work.
1303. Where do the Government come in when you send ont a man selected by the consult- ing engineers who themselves have approved of the plan? They come in much as they do if the man has en there already; they have every means of seeing what he is doing and of judging of the man. It is open to them at any moment, if they do not like the man or his work, to report that, and he can be changed.
1394. The evidence we had in this particular caso was that the Government did not come in at all except when it came to paying the bill? That, in my view, sas because the Government deliberately chose to stand aside; it did not like the position, and it chose to stand aside and refused to come in. You are prob. ably speaking of Sir Frank Swettenham ?
1305. Yes. Of course, he was not there when the system was inaugurated, but afterwards he complained that under this system, when a man got ill or died. as did happen with one of the assistant engineers, the Colony was precluded from assisting them through the Public Works Ipartment staff; but what actually happened was that when the man died the resident ngineer asked for somebody to be lent to him to assist, al he was told that nobody could be spared. That is what I mean by saying that they did not attempt to Jelp the thing along.
1396. But what log standi have they during the progress of the work when the railway is done in this Manner? They cannot go to your man out there and sayLook here, this ballast is not good enough on this portion of the line, you are doing this wrong; stop"-That is what I think they should do; he would probably have an answer.
1397. Would not the answer be a very blunt and unparliamentary one, and would he not tell them to ga somewhere else? That depends so much upon the man; if the ballast were right and the Government were wrong, he onght, if he was any good at all, to have no difficulty in satisfying them.
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[2 July 1908.
1308. (Mr. Gibson.) Where is it laid down as to what right the Colony have to come in? Surely there must be instructions; if that is allowed they must have a detinite right to intervene. What instructions are issued which give them that right to intervene and criticise -- In the case of the Straits no instruc- tions were sent of that kind-not instructions, I should say, but no explanation of the position, because the then Governor, Sir Alexander Swettenham, had been so long in Ceylon, in which the system has always worked quite well and harmoniously, that it was supposed he thoroughly understood it already, and that it was not necessary to explain it. That I am sorry to say turned out a mistake, and it was a great pity that instructions were not sent at the beginning. Profiting by that experience, when we began the same system in Cyprus we wrote a letter to the Colonial Governor explaining the position, which I would be very glad to put in if you like, and the result was that it worked perfectly well, they were entirely satis fied with everything that was done as far as I ever heard either personally or in writing, and no friction or difficulty of any sort arose.
1300. When you speak of the recognised system existing in Ceylon and being understood by Sir Alexander Sweltenham, what was that system in Ceylon-that the Government had the right through their technical staff to review and report and criticis --The Government always have the right to criticise what is going on; it would be absurd to suppose any other position.
1400. (Mr. Harris,) I think, perhaps, we are a little at cross purposes; is not the Government really the constructing party?--Yes, the only thing is that it is felt the consulting engineers are technically responsible for the line, and that if the 'unfortunate resident engineer had the Governor on one side saying "You must ballast your line with granite or something else." and the consulting engineers at the other end saying "You must use laterite," his position would become impossible, and, therefore, it has been understood that he gets his technical instructions from the consulting engineers.
1401, (Chairman.) Here?—Yes. It is open to him to act in emergency on his own judgment just as much as he likes. It is open to the Government to criticize his work just as they would criticise the works of the Public Works Department.
1402. What happens in this particular case? Sup- posing the Government technical man goes and says to this unfortunate fellow: "Look here, this will not do, my Government says granite is the only stuff in this country," and he replies, "Ah, but we agreed in the specification to use laterite," what happens then -which does he put down in point of fact?--The Government would decide.
1403. The Governor on the spot?--Yes, assuming there was no engineering objection to it. If it was only a matter of expense the engineer would say: Have what you like, but it will cost you so much more than the estimate," and if the Government after that chose to do it, it would be done.
1104. Supposing there was an engineering objection, it need not happen in the way of granite, but suppose there was
an engineering objection to what the Government man proposed; for instance, a culvert to I made of a particular kind of cement because it was cheaper, what then-That is not a very probable matter, but it would eventually have to go to the Secretary of State no doubt.
1405. And the work would stop until he decided between the two?-Presumably it would. That in one of the features of the Secretary of State's control, that it would prevent a colony from wasting its money on a method of construction which was unsound from an engineering point of view.
1400. In your judgment, which is the better of these two methods, as between the resident engineer to the Rtraits Settlements as a servant of the local Government carrying out the work and a man being went out from here to carry it out for them?-If they have a qualified man on the spot that they believe in, and who really is qualified, undoubtedly that is the bost system.
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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE
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GG
2 July 15
CROWN AGENTS' ENQUIRY COMMITTEE:
Mgr M. A. CAMERON, C.M.G.
You
can
1967. Of course, they can soon get one, can they not! They could if they proferied it. from somewhere else?
110s. They might ngage some man at a similar anunt, vile you would send from here?—Yes.
11099. Would that the better plan, or do you favour the plan which has worked with some ditti- culty in Singapore ami with success. I think you sail. in Cyprus I have no special preference for that plan bat it mely is a practical way of effecting The obj.et. The Government must have a man, and if they have no railway engineer on their staff, as many of them have not, they must have engineering advice on railway matters, and you must devise a play which hits in with those conditions.
1410. Am 1 quite clear about this, that in the one case the engineer is the servant of the Clovernment of the Volony, and in the other case he is the servant of thrown Agents?-No, he is the servant of the Governte111 in both cams,
1. But he is independent of them: practically, is I not -No, he is under agnement with them and paid by them.
I
62. Supposing he wants to make a culvert of a particular kind and the local Government wants him to make another kind of one, and he says that from the engineering point of view the Government are wrong, the local Government cannot get it done until the Secretary of State comes down on their side. gather that That is a matter of policy of the secre- tary of State. The Secretary of State holds the consulting engineers responsible for the correct con- struction of the line. If he chose to say that the consulting enginers were not to be responsible there might be a good deal to be said for doing that in the case of the larger colonies who understand railway construction. If he says We will not hold the con sulting engineers responsible and they shall only be consulted in such points as the Government chooses to refer to them." that makes another perfectly clear position. In that case the Government will do the
matter in its own way.
1413. That was the case in the Straits Settlements? In the Malay States, and undoubtedly, always assuming that they have sufficiently competent and experienced men available, that is the best system. The difficulty arises in the Straits and it arises in a place like Cyprus, where they have never built a rail- way, and there is nobody in the Colony who has been in charge of a railway, so that the Colony would be very unwise to build it without engineering advice and even control.
1414. In order to get the advantages of both systems, when a Colony finds it is going to embark on a railway policy, it ought to engage an engineer itself. so? On the spot?
Is that
1415. Yes, because then they will have the advantage of this local control which, as you point out, especially in the case of a large colony, works best, and they would also get a good man 7-Yes. It all arises out of the policy really of the Secretary of State; is he going to hold the consulting engineers responsible in case something turns out wrong with the railway after- wards, or is he going to hold the Colonial Government responsible, which means practically that he will never know of it unless it is something very serious?
1416. (Sir Ralph Moor.) You would hold that as long as the consulting engineer was to be held responsible by the Secretary of State he must have some control over the construction staff-Yes, he must in techui- cal affairs. He has no control over their conduct and all those matters.
1417. But he must have a control to some extent in the selection and in the work which they do?—Yes, if he is to be responsible.
1418. If he is not to be responsible and merely to be a consulting engineer, it would be a good course, in your opinion, for the Government to appoint their own construction staff entirely independently -Cer tainly, and then they would merely refer engineering questions to him when they wantis advice.
1419. (Mr. Bailey.) To what degree and in what way do you hold that the consulting engineers are held re
sponsible? Are they held responsible in purse for any shorkoming-They are responsible to this extent, that it discredits them if anything is wrong, and they would not be employed again if it was a serious case.
1420. It disenlits them as a private firm, in fact 1--- Yes, it discredits them; it gets known and damages their reputation, without doubt.
1421. (Sir Ralph Moor.) But there are cases where railways have been built where the consulting engi neers and the construction staff have been identical?- You are thinking of West Africa, no doubt.
14:2. Yes Yes, it has been very nearly that; they did appoint their own man and send him out.
1423. They appointed their own construction staff practically and managed them on the spot Yes. That was because of the conditions of West Africa, as you know, which are very different to those in the East, there being absolutely no permanence (or there was not formerly) among the Government officials who were constantly moving on.
1424. And there was the advantage of the experience once it started?—Yes, there were several considera- tions which led to that, but it has not been done in the case of any other railway, and is not likely to be.
1425. (Mr. Harris.) I take it that the construction staff. say on the Nigeria Railway, which is perhaps the railway Sir Ralph has in his mind, were all under agreement with the Colonial Government, were they not? When you speak of the consulting engineer as constructing, is that sound or right?—I am not quite certain about that; there have been changes in those It things, and I do not deal with them myself. would be better to ask Sir Ernest Blake, because I do not think it was always the same. It was changed at different times.
case
1426, (Chairman.) The Crown Agents built the rail-
in thait way
practically? The consulting engineers. I would rather not explain the West African system, because I have not been directly doing it. and I might mislead the Committee.
1427. One more point before we finish the story. The railway being completed, who is financially re- sponsible in case, say, a big bridge, the most expensive part of the line, is constructed of faulty girders and the whole thing collapses, involving increased expense to the Colony, supposing (a) that the Colony had ap- pointed a resident engineer. and he carried out the work; and (b) if the resident engineer had been selected by and worked under the consulting engi- neers-as in the case of Cyprus-who would be responsible for the loss?-In either case the Govern- ment of the Colony would have to pay the loss. The consulting engineer does not take the responsibilities of a contructor upon him.
1428. Would in no case the loss fall ultimately any where but on the Colony, do you think?—I cannot see what the case would be unless you could show culpable and wilful negligence on the part of the con. sulting engineer.
1420. There was the Jamaica case, was there not It is a point which has been a good deal discussed in the engineering profession, where the responsibili. ties of advisers do begin and end.
1430. Do you know?—It is an open question, and unless a case arose I do not think it is possible to say how it would end.
1431. (Mr. Leathes.) Supposing the plans were such as could not work?--It is very difficult to decide on a hypothetical case; such a thing has not happened.'
1432, Something happened in Canada the other day when a bridge fell down?-Certainly. I am not pre-
pares to say offhand who is responsible for that, but undoubtedly in the ordinary case in which all possible foresight and care have been taken, but perhaps the waterway was insufficient because the observations did not go back far enough, and at the same time they were the best which could be minde, the consulting engineers could not be held financially responsible.
1433. (Chairman.) You do not know where the responsibility lies in the case of a faulty design. As Mr. Bailey reminds me, a case in point was the Tay Bridge; when it collapsed it was agreed by, I think,
MINCTES OF EVIDENCE.
Major M. A. CAMERON, C.M.G.
ali engineers that it was due to the faulty design ?— That is s, and it broke the engineer down so com. 1 never pletely that he died shortly afterwards. heard that the consulting engineer had to replace the bridge. I do not think it is known yet who will be financially responsible for the Quebec Bridge which las fallen down. That is a similar case, being a defec tive design.
1
1134. Would it in either case, do you think, be the Consulting engineers or the Crown Agents Reserve Fund which would be held responsible?-It would certainly not be the Crown Agents' Reserve Funil, because they are not responsible for engineering de- sign; they get the best advice they can."
1435. Are they not?-How could they be?
They are not engineers.
1436. No, but they employ a consulting enginver ?—- They recommend a consulting engineer tủ thể best of their ability, and the Colony and the Secretary of State coneur, but that does not make them responsible for everything he does in his own profession; other- wise it would be necessary for them to check all his designs, which they could not possibly do. They have
It is u no Staff for doing it, and could not do it. part of the duties of an agent to check the technical work of the technical adviser he employs,
187. But what about the Jamaica case '--That had nothing to do with faults of design.
139. It was faults in the estimate? That was because the rolling stark was increasest in cost beyond the figure which had appeared in the original report, winch, by the way, the Crown Agents were not tobl to adhere to, although they admitted they ought tọ have done it, and the Colony therefore hul to spend more money than it has contemplated,
182. Owing in that view to faulty estimates?—Not to a faulty estimate in the sense of the estimate being wrong; the estimante was no doubt right for what was contemplated, but the consulting engineer, in corres. poi me with the officers of the Polity, improv d the type and specified a more expensive article than he hat wrignally himself proposed, very likely for the best possible reasons.
1440. Then who paid in that caso?-The Crown Agents paid the difference.
1441. Out of their reserve fund?They paid it out of révenue, I think. It came out of their money, at any
rate.
142. You are not clear how far that decision might apply in a case of a considerable disaster which "we hope will not occur, such as the fall of a bridge?—I am quite clear that it could not possibly be justly held that the Crown Agents are responsible for the work of technical advisers of the Colonies. They are respon- sible for their own mistakes.
1443. But they were in this case were they not, be- cause it was the consulting engineers in the Jamaica case who provided the better rolling stock?—They were only held responsible on the ground that they should have adhered to the original estimate and not given an order in excess of the original estimate without getting authority. That is a different matter to being responsible for the actual design.
1444. (Mr. Bailey.) Who gave the order in that case the Crown Agents or the consulting engineer?-The Crown Agents, on the recommendation of the consult- ing engineer, who did not point out to them that it was in excess of what he had recommended before.
1445. You did not recover any part of that money from the consulting engineer who had given you the ndvico 7—We did not attempt to. We quite admit that we are responsible for mistakes which we make our selves in the Office, and we do, in fact, refund any cost caused by occasional mistakes, and that is a sound principle. I would ask you to remember that the Crown Agents are only the Agents of the Colonies, and if you go to any agent and ask him to obtain technical advice and he does it to the best of his ability, and the advice turus out unsound, you cannot hold the agent responsible for that.
1448. (Chairman.) No. but then in that case he could go to another agent, and in this case he cannot ? No, but the agent submits to him the name of the adviser and he agrees.
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1447. (Mr. Huiley.) You pay a very considerable sum annually take it to your consulting engineer in the way of fees?-Altogether. I should say that we do not pay the consulting engineers; the Colonies pay
them.
1448. Of course, on your recommendation ?-Un our recommendation. The terms are generally agreed before the work begins; they are paid on some scale which is arrived at.
1419. Has it ever occurred to you to consider whether it would be worth your while to have an engi- neer attaches to your staff-an engineer of sufficient standing to be able to give you advice on these matters ? -No; I do not think it would work.
1450. I do not say for a moment it would; I simply put it to you. I think it is very undesirable indeed,
and I am quite prepared to explain why if you wish it. 1451, (Sir Ralph Moor.) With regard to the ques tion of the works, the purchase of material, and so oni, for public works, and the inspection and shipment of it, will you explain that system to us?—It is rather a long matter; where would you like me to begin? Per- haps you have not seen the memorandum I have sent in it is all on record in certain printed documents that you have got.
1452, (Chairman.) You have told us in your memo- rendum about the Works Department, but of course direct evidence from you as to how the thing works cannot be given in any memorandum. Sir Ralph's point, as I take it, is how does the ordering of these stores work in your judgment 7-You mean the pur- chase of stores?
1453, (8ie Ralph Mom,) The purchase of materials and stores generally, and their inspection at this end before shipment. Would you please explain your method of "doing that ?—It is such a very wide sub- jeet; if you could narrow it down to some particular class of goods I coufil tell yua.
1454. Take a wood and iron building, for instance. --Do you want me to tell you what happens?
1455. Suppose that a local government sends you home a design for a wood and iron building which they require a bungalow--what steps do you take on receipt of that?—If they send us home sufficiently com- plete information we invite tenders for it,
1456. Do you submit it to any of your technical staff or any adviser on that class of building--As a rule we do because it is very rarely that designs come home in a sufficiently complete form, specification and all, to be issued to contractors. If you issue an incomplete document in a case of that sort you get so many differences in the design that the prices and designs are hardly comparable.”
1457. Then you would submit the plan sent home to you to a technical adviser for advice on the plan and completion of the specification -For a thing like that we should-as to whether it was in a form in which it could be issued to contractors.
1858. Supposing he altered the construction in any way, would you submit it back to the Colony or would you change it in accordance with his views ?—If it was merely details of construction which did not affect the design we would not refer it back.
1459. Supposing it was a question affecting material and cost? We should submit it to the Colony.
new.
1460, In all cases?—That class of case fairly often happens although we do not supply many bungalows I am glad to say that almost all houses are built locally now, so that that rather difficult matter is past. The engineers to whom we send such a design generally come to me and say that they have been through this design, and they find all sorts of things wrong with it, some that will not work and some that might be more economically done, and so on, and what had they better do. We generally go through it with them, and in some cases we say that the design may not be the best thing, but that is what the Colony has asked for and they had better have it. As to other things it may be impossible to do that; if it is a weakness, so that it would fall down, the engineers are bound to set that right. If it makes any material difference in the cost, we either refer it out or telegraph out according to circumstances.