PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE
Reference :-
ETC.O.885
سالسا
19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON
ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO
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20 June 1908.]
CROWN AGENTS' ENQUIRY COMMITTEE:
Sir E. BLAKE, K.C.M.G.
The system is followed to ensure everything of the least nature of a complaint coming before us. The complaints from the Colonies are quite negligible.
1320. I felt that there might be some point in it, because you stated a little later that it would be a popular thing the various Colonies were told that your office was abolished altogether?-It would be.
1821. Has that feeling always been the same?-It has always been and always will be.
1322. Why do you think it arises if you do your work so well for them 7-Because it is human nature: people like patronage, and if it were not for the Crown Agents they would have the disposal of these orders. They would place them with any particular firm they had a fancy to.
1323. Are your relations as an office with the Colo- nies better or worse than they were ten years ago?-- Immensely better, and the bigger the Colonies the better the relations, We are most attacked by the abs- lutely trumpery places that give us little or no busi-
ness.
The bigger the Colony the better the relations, and it is always that way. You saw in the newspaper the other day that the Orange River Colony gave us a high testimonial, but look in that book, and you will see that there is the most offensive letter in the whole book from the Governor of the Orange River. I think it is a good case of "Coals of fire."
1324. You mean that you could from this Issuk, look- ing at the question of complaint, tell me what the per- centage is I cannot tell your in the least. There is no percentage, and I am afraid we have no system by which I could give you that.
1325, I think you said they were registered—that those letters as they came in were registered?—The number of documents we have to deal with is some. thing gigantic.
1326. I know it is, and if they are all registered it is the easier to make it out ?—But there is no record kept of them, our business is done mainly on what is called the "case system." and all the papers that relate to it go into that case, and we do not keep any record.
1327. That rather discounts your statement as to the --Insticity that you have as against the Civil Service, if you make difficulties with regard to answering a ques- tion of that description ?—I do not make any difficulty. and it can be looked up if you wish.
1328. You say that these things are all put by sub- jects. which is a perfectly good system, and you say they are all registered, which is another goal system. and I want to know the result of that?—They are not separately registers. I am afraid it was the word "Registry" which misled you. What I meant was that those papers come to the Crown Agents before there is any chance of anyone abstracting them and preventing their going to the Crown Agents. That is all I meant ; many of those documents would have
nothing more than the receipt stamp put on them, and then they would be put into their particular file.
1320. With regard to your staff, when you were hero last you told us you did look to the Civil Service from time to time when it was convenient, so that, of course, now you are in the very advantageous position of being ble to look to the Civil Service whenever you choose? - Yes,
1330. And at other times to draw assistance in from the outside?--Yes.
1331. So that the whole basis of your office is natur ally a very fortunate one, and, of course, you are also fortunate with regard to your customers in that you are a tied house?—Yes.
1332. So that you have every advantage, and then you say at the same time that they would like to get rid of you 10-morruw?—That is merely human nature.. If you look into the quality of the complaints. I have often thought it would be a most admirable thing if the Secretary of State were to make a collec tion of the complaints made from the Colonies and the answers to them by the Crown Agents, and have them printed and circulate them to the Colonics for their information. It would be most instructive, I assure
you.
The extraordinary way in which these com. plaints collapse is marvellous, I brought over a corre spondence with a Mr. Ben Morgan, but I do not know that the Committee would want to be troubled with it.
1833. (Chairman.) When was this?-In 1904. Ha went out to South Africa as Commissioner of the engineering, trades, and I had a friendly correspond. ence with him and pressed him. because he made a lot of vague charges, to be specific with regard to them, and the thing absolutely collapsed; he would
not do it.
1834. (Sir Ralph Moor.) Could you give us some also which did not collapse? 1 presume there were some that did not collapse?--You can have Mr. Sells before you, and ask him if he has anything against Do you care for that correspondence which I have mentioned ?
18.
1835. (Chairman.) I think the best plan would be if you would put it in when next you come before us. You were very anxious to make a reply to any criti- cisms that were maile, and what the Committee thought would be advisable was that they, having had the advantage of the very full evidence with which you have been good enough to favour us on these two days, should invite you to give evidence again at the end of the proceedings if you wish to do so, in accordance with the promise originally made to you that if there were any criticisms you should be allowed an oppor- tunity of replying to them? The only thing I ask you, sir. is that if we are attacked you should insist on the people making the charges specific, so that wo can deal with them.
The witness withdrew.
Adjourned to Thursday next nt 1030 o'clock.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCA.
SEVENTH DAY,
Thursday, 2nd July, 1908.
At the Colonial Office, Downing Stred.
PRESENT:
COLONEL J. E. B. SEELY, D.S.O., M.P. (Chairman).
Sir RAL MOOB, K.C.M.G.
H. J. GIBSON, Esq., C.B.
R. BAILEY, Esq., M.V.O., I.8.0.
S. M. LEATHEs. Esq.
C. A. Harris, Esq. C.B., C.M.G.
Major M. A. CAMERON, C.M.G., called and examined.
1336. (Chairman.) The particular points we thought you might be good enough to give us evidence upon were railways other than the Atrican and Hong-Kong Railways, the Enginbering and Works Department, and also, which I think we would begin with, the general question of the position of the Crown Agents both as a whole and infer sc. What is your view of the three Crown Agents? Are they a Board like the Board of Admiralty or the Board of Inland Revenue, is there a senior Crown Agent at the head with two subordinates --It is a point that has never been raised for determined in any way, but I should say that they approximate to the position of a Board with the senior Crown Agent in a position of greater responsibility-- that is to say, in the case of a difference of opinion, which, I am glad to say, has not arisen to any material atent, his view would probably be held by the Secre- tary of State to preponderate. It has never been determined or discussed, that I am aware of.
1337. But on the whole you think they might regarded as a board with a preponderating influence f the chairman, as we might call the sefuor Crown Agent ?---That is my view, certainly,
Full
1336. That being your view' as to their position tafer se, what is your view of the position of the Crown Agents with regard to the Secretary of State and Parliament? One view expressed is that they are almost, if not quite, independent of Parliament, the Secretary of State and the Civil Service: How do
regard their position!--It is
11 difficult question to answer at once, but primarily they are the Agents of the Colonial Governments. As the Secretary of State exercises control over the Crown Odony Governments, he necessarily exercises control mer their agents. They are, in fact, in one sense a feature of the control of the Secretary of State over the Crown Colonies, but their primary duty is to the Governments of the Colonies for which they are agents. 1839. We have to inquire into the status of the Crown Agents and their staff. In your view are they removable? To they hold their office at pleasure or during good behaviour-are they like a judge or the rector of a parish, or are they like the rest of us here? -It is impossible for me to say; there is no decision upon which to settle a point like that. Nothing is said about removability in appointing them.
1310. Of course, it is a most important question; vou utiderstand that -- Yes.
1311. Because it involves the whole status of the Urown Agents as they have exercised control over their staff, and it involves the question of the staff to- It is not a point I have ever given much attention to, I am afraid I do not know the exact degree of removability of the Civil Service.
1342. All Civil servants hold their office at pleasure subject to reasonable notice, both l'arliamentary representatives like myself, and Civil servants like The gentlemen here, the only exceptions being the Judges, and the Comptroller and Auditor-General, and his assistant. Nothing being laid down about it, I should imagine that if the question arose it would have to be settled upon first principles as qustion,
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1343. We have had evidence to show that the view that they seenpy the fortunate position of the Judges
Á. J. HÁRDING (Secretary).
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and Mr. Gibson, and the Comptroller and Auditor- General is erroneous, and that evidence weighed with the Committee; still we wanted to know whether it was a subject you had given attention to?--It is not a sub- -ject we have ever discussed, nor is it one to which I
have over given attention.
1314. With regard to the railways, you control, I think Sir Ernest Blake told us, all railways except those in Africa and the Hong Kong Railway in the whole of Africa excluded from your control ?--The whole of Africa.
1345. You have had to do with the making of the railways?—Yes, I should not use the word "control" in connection with them, but so far as the office is con- cerned in the making of railways, 1 have had to do with them.
1946. Could you tell us, broadly speaking, what you do and whether you think it works well? Naturally it is difficult for you to find fault with your own work, but would you tell the Committee what your view is: first, what is done, and secondly, if it is the best way to do it ?—In the case of a new construction?
1347. Yes, take that.—The usual position is for the Colonial Government to bring forward first of all its project for a railway. The project is then generally, by direction of the Secretary of State, referred to a consulting engineer, who advises on the whole matter, examines the estimates, and reports generally on the proposal. His report generally goes to the Colony and may be more or less discussed, and is eventually adopter, perhaps, in a modified form.
neer.
1348. Whose report is this?--The consulting engi
1340. Appointed by you ?-He is actually as a rule appointed upon our recommendation.
1350. Would you not always recommend the appoint- ment of this consulting engineer ?--Yes,
sam» men.
1351. It is absolutely within your control, although he may be not part of your pernianont staff ?– He is in no case a part of our permanent staff; we have no consulting engineer at all permanently connected with the office except so far as, by custom, we go to the
1352. How many of these consulting engineers are there whom you go to?-I could not say the number, but there is a list in the Colonial Office List. I can tell you the railway engineers, They are Messrs. Elliot-Cooper and Shelford; Messrs. tiregory,
Eyles and Waring; Sir John Wolfe Barry, for Hong Kong: Sir Alxander Rendel for the Uganda Railway. 1353. (Mr. Gibson.) He is the consulting engineer for the India Office?-Yes. Then there are Messrs. Hawkshaw and Dobson for Mauritius.
1354. (Chairman.) Who appointed them-did you? -We actually do the correspondence with them, but they are always appointed with the concurrence of the * Colonial Government and the Secretary of State.
1855. In this Colonial Office List the consulting engi- neers are placed along with the staff of the Crown Agents for the Colonies just as though they were part of their staff, but they are not as a fact?-They are not part of our staff, but they are habitually employed by the office.