PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE
Reference :-
TITLC.O.885
19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON
ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO
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29 June 1908.]
CROWN AGENTS' ENQUIRY COMMITTEE:
Sir E. BLAKE, K.C.M.G.
that the credit of the office and the prosperity of the office are very closely my interest.
1263. I am suggesting an alternative plan by which we might avoid these ditheulties of a large reserve fund causing questions in Parliament, such as Mr. Gibson Bowles asked, the difficulty of so arranging the percen tage that it shall be sufficient for these varying pur- ses, the possiblo retirement of two Crown Agents at the same time, and so on. All these difficulties are avoided by the system which obtains in Government Departments; it may have its drawbacks. You have pointed out the drawbacks with regard to the staff. and we have listened very attentively, but in this one matter it seems to me the arguments are the other way, and one would like your reply to the question: What is the advantage from this anomalous position by which the Secretary of State creates this huge fund? -It does not seem to me that £400,000 is a huge fund when you consider the liabilities that are upon it. You yourself, sir, have called attention to the fact, and I have said it myself, that the Secretary of State at any moment kill our income. Thio income might drop off immensely, and we should have our stal to deal with and gradually to get rid of. We have recently lost the Transvaal; we had increased our staff very largely, and we liave now to get rid of rhuse men. We must do justice to those men, and treat them with consideration. The Secretary of State night say anything that would take that business away from us, and our income might drep away prae- tically to nothing. In some years we have had to take part of the income of our reserve fund to supplement the income which we earned.
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1261 It caused you great anxiety when the Trans- van was taken away from you! It would have done so, but simultaneously the railway policy in Nigeria has come on and that has filled the "gap."
1265. Had not that been the ease, it would have -Ther would have calised you great inbarrassment
been a very great drop.
1266. And it would have caused you embarrassment? Temporary embarrassment, certainly.
1267. The whole of that would have been cured if you were more assimilated to the Civil Service? From That point of view, but I come round to my point again I am afraid that the eliciency of the office would be ruined if it were turned into a Government office.
1268. For the reasons you have given us earlier?—
Yes.
12690. Why I have been pressing yon on this matter is because it seems to many of us that the method of payment was open to these objections on both sides. You have now given us the very striking case when the Transvaal was taken away from you. when if at had not been for the Nigerian Rariway system you would have been temporarily embarrassed, as you say 1--Yes,
1270. And if certain things had not on urred simul- taneously? It so happens that both Ceylon and the Malay States have been building railways com siderably, but the extraordinary time uf prom sperity of our business is pust. It is Just as ay to order a dozen locomotives 114 1. onder one; the machinery is exactly the same, but the return is a very different matter. When the Frans. vunl was ordering 50 locomotives at a time that was excellent business, and the ordering of hundreds of miles of rails made us very prosperous, but most of our business is absolutely trumpery.
1271. Would it not be a great relief to yon to he re- lieved of all this anxiety It will not affect me per- sonally.
1272. We are assuming that you are stall in acive cupation of the work which you have worked so very hard at. and I ask you the question as the senior Crown Agent-would it not be a great relief to the semor Urown Agent to be entirely relieved of this finan- cial anxiety as to the growth of this fund?—1 dʊ not know how it strikes you, but there is an immense deal of interest in this work; if a Crown Agent is fit for his work he must not be afraid of responsibility. He must be a man of courage and have absolutely no fear of responsibility. There is a great deal of excitement and interest in the work, and I should be very sorry to
hare to go to the Secretary of State and say, "May 1 do this or "May I do that fact, my work would not be one quarter as good if I had to go to another man about it. I am prepared to take the consequences. 1273. You will not purchase financial security at the cost of your independence ?– Nụ.
1274. (Mr. Harris.) What view do you take of a proposal I made some time ago before this Commit- tee was thought of-namely, that if the reserve fund reached the limit of half a million that would be ampio for everything ?--My idea is that when it has renclied half a million it would be adequate for the office, and then we ought to pile up something for the building of new offices. With regard to the cost of a new office it in almost impossible to say what it would be.
1275. (Mr. Bailey.) What did your present office cost? Between £50,000 and £60,000.
1276. Do you remember how much the acquisition of the lease cost? It is a very complicated matter; you must take it as between £50,000 and £60,000. First, we had to acquire Sir Robert Peel's house, and then to acquire the next house, pull that down, rebuild it, and add two stories, and, roughly, it comes to between £50,000 and £60,000. It was forced upon us; the Sec- retary of State told us that we were to leave Downing Street, and we had to house ourselves. I think it was a very great feat; we never stopped work for a single day.
1277. (Mr. Leathes.) There was only one point 1 was pitzzled about. The work of the three Crown Agents seems to be very nicely separated off. is it not! They ench have their own branch; what happens when one of then goes on leave --We arrange between ourselves to distribute the work.
1278. So that to a certain extent the Crown Agents are interchangeable; they can do each others' work?— Yes, but to a great extent we specialise, and one man knows much more on a subject than another, but the other Crown Agent is quite efficient to carry on.
1270. If you were to retire it would be necessary to have somebody to succeed you who understood finance, for instance-I hop. when I rire. Major Cameron will succeed the.
1280. You would want a Crown Agent competent to deal with finance?—No, I think they must gradually learn their work in the office.
1281. (Mr. Gibson.) One question about the organisa- tion of the Department, Appendix I. I think you have already said that that shows the present organisation of the office-That is the present organisation.
1282. You hinted the other day that you had a scheme in view for a revised organisation?--No; this is what I have been working at." What I said to time Committer was that I felt it so hard to be interfered with when I had not quite carried it through. What I intended to do was to ask the Seretary of State to approve of this organisation. I intended to point out that we had got an immensely larger staff than bad been authorised, and that I wanted a revised sum ap- propriated for the purpose. The office organisation is practically completed; we may have to increases the number of section heads from time to time and the number of clerks at the bottom, but the departments are quite adequate for all our requirements.
128, 1 ask, ierause I was rather struck with the seals of pay of the III, and IV. grades; Class IV. odictments at £70 rising to £250; arid Class IIF. appa- rently start at £90) and rise to £3007-You must remember that the IV. Class is a subsequent creation ; the 11. Class was at the bottom of the office, and the TV. Class has been engrafted on to this, and therefore there are a lot of anomalies which only time will work out.
1981. That is why I asked if this was to be the permanent organisation. This is the permanent orgamsation of the office.
1995. (Mr. Leather.) Ultimately Class IV. will be- come permanent Ultimately class IV. will become permanent.
12. But you would always have an average of thout 50 boy clerks ---Depending on the requirements. Of course, the heads of departments do not like
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Sir E. BLAKE, K.C.M.G.
61
[29 June 1908.
working with temporary people-it adds to their and Major Cameron ought to be considered to do the trouble.
same business?—They ought not.
1287. (Alr. Gibson.) But in the normal working, Classes II, and IV. would be amalgamatel ?--No, th III. Class become section heads and IV. takes the place of the old Class 111.
1288. May I ask what salary you contemplate for Class ill, assuming they are promoted (→→→) should like to increase that a little.
1289. If III and IV. are going to be separate and permanent classes, the maximum of Class IV. being 1250 and the maxunum of Class 111. practically either £300 or £350– 3-I should like to increase the maximum of Class III.
1290. I take it you would have the minimum rate in excess of the maximum of the Class IV. -Yes, you will see we have provided for that by that minute, when I said a man promoted from Class IV. wali go into Class 111. at not less than his existing salary. This is a period of transition, and until that is passed over there will be difficulty.
12291, (Chairman.) Is there a reorganisation now in progress-It has been in progress for a good many Jars.
1292. When did it begin-When the Transvaal was suddenly thrown upon us. That was practically when I took charge of the office in 1900.
12993. This is what might be called a general te- organisation --We have been working on these lines and gradually bringing it into force.
1294. Did you consult the Secretary of State step by step? -No, because we did not know how long the work was to be with us; we put these men tem- prarily on the supplemental list and, supposing the Secretary of State suddenly said: This is to come to an end." we should have been able to say to these then: "We are very sorry, but we can only keep a limited number of you and the rest must go.”
12:5. 11 as the case that the Secretary of State has ig be consulted ?—Oh, yes; before 1 can put them on the establishment he has to be consulted.
1296. He is consulted and he approves or disap- proves, as the case may be, of any reorganisation scheme?—Yes.
1297, (3). Gibson.) With regant to the technical leads. I see you have a head of the Engineering and Works Department, Major Carmichael, R.E. ?—Yes,
1298. | suppose he was selected and brought into that position; he would come in as the head of the
partment? -Yes, and generally it is a great ques tion whether any of our subordinates will be it for promotion to his place.
1299. You have assistant in engineering inspec
; they are also brought in by special examination * They are all brought in.
1300, By examination or selection -By selection. 10. So far note of these experts who have been brought in as assistants have been promoted to be inals ---There has not been time yet, but there is Mr. Heath, who is head of the Engineering Inspec- no Branch, tint as to say, of our outside inspection. work; he is head of a department because there is a great deal of correspondence and routine work, but he and his deputies are always travelling about looking after the sub-inspectors.
1502, Major Cameron is head of the Public Works Department. With regard to the question of placing inrge contracts for special engineering stores," brølg- ng. railway material, and so on, to what extent does Major Cameron, as the head of your Works Depart- Tent, plnev out these contracts direct with firmis?-- Major Carmichael is subject to the Crown Agent.
1303. I am speaking of Major Cameron.-That department is under Major Cameron, and it is the duty of Major Carmichael as head of the department to bring to Major Cameron the schedules, and if there Is any question to raise it to him. If the lowest tenlerer is a good firm, and there is no question about it, it is perfectly straightforward.
1301. I do not quite make my point clear; what I wanted to know was to what extent Major Carmichael
1305. To what extent does the head of your Works Department, Major Cameron, place orders direct with firms, or in what cases does he deal directly with out- side firms, and in what cases does he employ consult ing engineers?—I think you had better ask him, be- cause you will travel over the same ground again; he will deal with these questions.
1306. (Sir Ralph Moor.) In the course of your duties at times you have to invest considerable sums of money from the various Colonies ---Very large sums.
1307. How do you deal with these questions of in- vestment in selecting the securities (--On my own judg
inent.
1308. Personally?—Yes.
1309. Do yun consult with nobody ?—I get informa tion, of course, from the brokers. The Secretary of State has given us a certain broad authority, and within that authority I exercise my own independent judgment.
1310. Is that authority as to the class of securities? -Yes,
1311. And that is your limitation ?—Yes.
1312. The other day Sir Henry Blake in his evidencɑ with regard to Jamaica said:" "We had passed an ordinance for a loan of £100,000 or £200,000 ur some small sum; the market at that time was not suitable, and the Crown Agents financed us as we required it at per cent, on advances which they got from the London and Westminster Bank." Is that quite cur- rect-1 do not remember that to have occurred in Sir Henry Blake's time, but an exactly similar case has occurred since he left, and I should like to say what it was. You remember that I spoke very strongly about the treatment wo received with re- gard to Jamaica and how we were made to refund £600. That represents two years of our commercial income from Jamaica. Two or three years afterwards Jamaica was in financial troubles, as she usually is, and they passed a loan ordinance for temporary deben- tures of £100,000 or £150,000, or something like that. If I had simply acted un instructions I should have issued that loan and got commission upon it, but instead of that I financed them temporarily and saved them £800 over that transaction, although they had taken £600 out of our pockets two years previously. The then Governor acknowledged publicly our services. 1313. My point was with regard to the statement that you obtained the money from the London and Westminster Bank and were able to make them an advance at 2 per cent. -1 cannot tax my memory with that.
1314. Would it not be usual for you in a vase like that to use the funds of perhaps the other Colonies in your hands—We use any funds we have in our hands, but Sir Henry Blake is probably inaccurate about the London and Westminster Bank. At the present moment I have lots of funds in my hands and they are being lent to varuus Colonies at bank rate.
1315. That is what I mean--that the funds in your hands you employ for the various "Colonies to ad- vance to another Colony which requires funds?—I finance the Colonies wanting money with the funds of the Colonies who have money,
1316. At bank rate?—Yes.
1317. Probably the transaction Sir Henry referred to would be done in that way: Probably, but 1 can-
not tax my memory.
1318, (Sir „Ilbert Spier.) You mentioned that when you receive the correspondence it is all put into different boxes, and any complaints are put by them- selves, so that you see them before they go out. ?--Yes.
1319, 1 do not suppose you could give them off- hand, but can you give me the percentage of the complaints from each Colony in the various depart- ments --They are very small infood, quite negligible; it is an extraordinary thing that the complaints we receive are quite negligible. When I say "com. plaints," very often a contractor says that he has been badly treated by an inspector, or he does not think he ought to be subjected to a fine or things of that sort.