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24 June 190.)
CROWN AGENTS' ENQUIRY COMMITTEE:
Sir ROBERT B. LLEWELYN, K.C.M.G.
question of their orders for stores being placed directly under the Crown Agents if they were made a branch of the Colonial Office-That is 60.
1023. They would prefer more independence than they have under the present system -Yes, they would have great suspicion if the Colonial Office were to order their stores; they would not like that at all, but a Board they would have no objection to, and i think it would be an improvement myself.
1024. (Mr. Leather.) Would your suggestion be that the financial side might possibly go to the Colonial Office, and that the purchase of stores should be mainly left in the hands of the Colonies themselves They would have to employ somebody in England as agents. I do not think they ought to be allowed to employ a puvate firm. Take a firm like Thompson and Hankey, who used to be agents for Jamaica, 1 do not think they ught to be able to employ any firm for loans, and su forth, because it is sometimes necessary to stop sala- ries of public licers, and merchants would advance salaries. I think the salaries and the financial busi- mess must be in the hands of a Government Depart ment. but as to the stores 1 do not see why good. responsible agents should not deal with those if the Colonies chose to have them.
1025. (Mr. Harris.) Do you think that Thompson and Hankey, for instance, would buy as well as the Crown Agents, who are buying for several Colonies ?— I expect they could nowadays, competition is so keen. One of the principal items in many of the Colonies is medical stores and drugs, and 1 suppose the Society of Apothecaries and others would let the Colonies have them just as cheap through any mercantile agent, as they give them to the Crown Agents.
1026. (Mr. Gibson.) With regard to engineering stores, railway material and things of that sort, would the firm you referred to be in a position to under- take large purchases of that kind? They could buy cement, of which large quantity is used in many Colonies, cheaper than the Crown Agents. Com- petition is so keen that they would know exactly what à barrel of cement was selling for in London, and would write to an agent in London for it and the freight.
1027. You must have them inspected at home before being sent out?The inspection business is optional
now.
1028. I take it that it is dispensed with only in very special cases at the request of the Colony. The Colony would surely not make large orders of material without inspection -There is no reason for inspection if you order 1,000 barrels of cement from one of the well-known firms such as White's, and firmS like that. If you order 1,000 barrels of comment from White it need not be inspected, because they are people who, in an order like that, if any claim were made for damage would pay up promptly. I think many of these things could be bought through London firms of good standing nowadays. I do not know how the Crown Agents do their shipping business; that has always been a mystery. They charge us the full pas- sage money; Freeland takes the passage ticket for you, and he charges just the same as the steamer charges. so that I would like to know what Freeland gets out of it. Take a passage to the West Indies. £30, if I go and
take a ticket it costs me £30; but Freeland takes that ticket for you, and there is a lot of formality, and he Do the mail steam merely charges the same amount. companies give discounts to Freeland on passenger tickets? They will not give me a discount. Why should not the Colony get the benefit of that discount? 1029), (Chairman.) One last question. You know that the Crown Agents' Oflice is kept going by means of various commissions ?--Yes.
1930, All of which are subject to the approval of the Secretary of State and are on a fixed scale which, although it may not be generally known, is easily ascert amabie?—Yes.
1031. It has been suggested that it would be better to have the Crown Agents' Office paid like all other That is Government departments on fixed salaries. done in the case of India, where they have a similar department, and those commissions would then be abolished, but that would involve your having a vote for the Crown Agents in your Colonies. We have asked one other witness what he thought of that: what would your view be as to that?-That, of course, would be estimated on what the cost had been pre- viously?
1032.—Yes.--There would be no increase?
1033. No?--I think they would not disapprove of that if they knew they were to get the full com
issions. They would approve of a salary if they know they were to get the full commissions.
1034. They would pay a proportion of the cost of the office?—Yes, I do not think there would be any objection to that if it was done.
1835. One witness said that he thought it might be a great cause of friction?—I suppose that would be on account of the Crown Agents being unpopular generally. They would say: "We do not want the Crown Agents; they are unpopular and we do not like them, and we would like to have nothing to de with them. But I think if they were told they would have to have some agents, and if you gave the Colony a little more control it would work. If you let them know what their money was going for it would satisfy them. but now that is a perfect secret, although I Lave known that they were paid by commission m I did not know, however, until this minute that the Secretary of State approved of the coumission.
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way.
1038. (Mr. Gibson.) Was not a Parliamentary paper published in 1904 stating the various rates of commis- sion, and sent round to all the Colonies for their information -It came out. I think, when I was in England, and when I got back to the Colony I never really read it through. I quite overlooked it.
were
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1037. If the cost of the Crown Agents Office
voted
the BS specific service
amounts might fluctuate very much from year to year, and the Colony would say: "How is it that the amount is going up one year compared with another? They are rather accustomed to that, in some Colonies, where for instance the auditor for three Islands has his salary annually apportioned, according to the revenue and expenditure every year in each of the Islands. That is an understood system.
The witness withdrew.
Adjourned to Monday next at half-past ten o'clock.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
SIXTH DAY,
Monday, 29th June, 1908.
At the Colonial Office, Downing Street.
PRESENT
COLONEL J. E. B. SEELY, D.S.O., M.P (Chairman).
The Rt. Hon. Sir F. MOWATT, G.C.B., 1.8.0.
Sir RALPH MOOR, K.C.M.G.
H. J. GIBSON, Esq., C.B.
R. BAILEY, Esq., "M.V.O., I.8.0.
Sir ALBERT SPICER, Bart., M.P. S. M. LEATHEs, Esq.
C. A. HARRIS, Esq., C.B., C.M.G.
A. J. HARDING (Secretary)
Sir ERNEST BLAKE, K.C.M.G., recalled and further examined,
1039-12, (Chairman.) You were good enough to send me some heads of further evidenco which you wish to tender mostly on the general question of the staff?— Yes.
1043. The first point which you said you had not sufficiently brought out in your evidence was as to the necessity for complete control over your staff, the necessity being inherent in the nature of the business which necessarily affords openings for corruption and fraud-Yes, that is so.
1044. Could you say what further points you wish to raise upon that?--I do not know whether the Com mittee clearly realises that our office is peculiarly open to corruption. The interest of the manufacturer or of the supplier of goods of any kind might be, if possible, to get hold of one of our staff to get infor- mation, which would be useful to him. I am glad to say that I believe our staff is perfectly sound, but still there is no question that they are open to having approaches made to them. Such approaches have been made in the past, and it is very desirable that it should be well known that the Crown Agents would deal very drastically with anything of the kind,
1045. (Mr. Gibson.) Are they not very much in the same position as regards the clerical staff as those in the office of the Director of Contracts in the War Office? -You must recollect that the War Office deals with a comparatively limited number of things as compared with us; we are dealing with all kinds of things. There is nothing, I suppose, that you could specify that we do not have to deal with.
1046. (Chairman.) Or would the India Office Le com- parable! Even there they deal in such very large Whatever quantities and such very large lines.
Colony chooses to order we have to supply, and the Colonies are very fond of trying to force us to go to particular firms. That firm immediately comes and tries to look up business at our office, and make sure of it.
1017. (Sir Francis Mowatt.) Would you tell me how the present constitution of your office gives you power to prevent such corruption, as you have used the ex- pression, more than the Civil Service constitution? I think, perhaps, I had better bring that out in con- neetion with the way in which we deal with our work. 109s. As it has been introduced, I think it would be convenient if you answered that question?—First of all, all the papers that come into the alfice are pool in the room of the secretary. Originally they used to be opened in the room of one of the Crown Agents, but the work became so excessively heavy and eupied his time so much that a few years ago a secretary was appointed, and his duty is to have every- thing opened in his presence. These any opened by me of our boy clerks in his presence, and the papers are handed to him. On each paper he marks the letter which indicates the Department. The secre tury has not the power to give instructions as to any- thing. breth marks to each department the papers Poncerning that department. A great many papers go ut having the printed letters upon them, but those which have not he has to indicate. For instance, the
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Works Department gets marked "W" General Stores "G.” Then with rigard to any letter of the nature of a complaint or anything bordering on a complaint or anything of the slightest importance, it is his duty to put those papers into a separate basket and send them straight to the Crown Agents before they are registered, that there shall be on possability, of their dropping through or being tampered with.
1019. Just as you go along let me notice there that there is nothing in the appointment or constitution of your cleaks which is affected by that; that can be done equally in a Civil Service Department as it is done with you ?- Is that so?
1990. Yes.-That all the papers practically that are of importance gusto the authorities before they go to in Registry.
1051. (Mr. Gibson.) It is so in the War Office, cer ainly. That may be in consequence of what hap-
teed at the War Office.
1052. (Sir Francis Mowalt.) Let us follow it from step to step. What is the next point in which you would distinguish between the position of a Civil Service clerk and a clerk appointed by private patronage--what is the next distinction you draw l-- I was speaking of the way in which we dealt with our business.
1053. My question was this (I beg your pardon if I have not made it plain, because it is rather impor- tant); we are considering the advantages of the con- stitution of your Department as compared with the constitution of a Civil Service Department, for the purpose, as 1 understand, on your part of showing that your constitution affords you better facilities for preventing fraud?--Fraud and corruption that is so. 1051. We have dealt so far with your first point; have you any other distinction you draw between the Civil Service constitution of a department and your cwn?--Of course, I have no knowledge of the Civil Servic» proper, except from my knowledge of the Colonial Office: I have no other knowledge. I have never been connected with any other department, and all I can say is that I cannot imagine a much closer system than we have of watching over our business than that everything of the nature of a complaint or anything of importance comes to us first-that it does not even run the risk of being registered, so that it could be got at. It comes to us instantly it is received.
1055. Do you think the registration affords a risk? -Yes, I should say it unquestionably does.
1056. Very well. Is there any third distinction you wish to draw-The tenders, that is to say the com petitive tenders, are all received in a locked box, and they are all initialled before they go forward.
1057. That. I think, is exactly the same as the Civil Service again-Yes. May I say here, that when the Clinton Dawkins Committee sat on the War Office, directly its report was published I was very much interested, naturally, to see what it was. I did not find in that Report one single precaution that we had not already in force; things which they suggested
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