PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE
Reference :-
C.O.885
19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON
ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO
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24 June 190
CROWE'S AGENTS' ENQUIRY COMMITTEE:
Sir F. A. SWETTENHAM. K.C.M.G.
shop and buy the thing and seal it to you. That all means delay.
£80. (Chairman.) And your experience has been that there has been delay-Yes, the delay sometimes has been terrible.
981. (Mr. Gibeon.) You admit with regard to that that your experience only goes up to 19912-Yes.
982. Mr. Chatberlain, in his Despatch of 1003, did recommend, and in fact lay down, certain instructions to the Crown Colonies with a view to minimising the delay, but you would not be aware really to what ex- tent that has had a beneficial result?—No.
DS3. What was laid down was first that the nquisi- tion should go straight to the Crown Agents and be dealt with directly by them without the intervention
of the Colonial Office, and secondly that the Colonial Government should be allowed to recommend the names of firms through whom the orders should bo placed?-As far as my experience goes that has always been the case; that is not at all novel to me.
As long
as I can remember it has been open to a Colony to say: "We should like you to go to Mr. So-and-So for this thing." They do not always do it, mind.
981-5. With regard to those eement firms, was it not in the power of the Governor to recommend that the cement shambl be obtained from these firms-1 d not kurow how it is today, but I am pretty eer- am thu there have been such cases as for the local Government to say to a local firm: "Supply us with something which comes originally from England," and they have been told they must not do that.
The witness withdrew.
Sir ROBERT B. LALWELYN, K.C.M.G., called and examined.
950. (Chairman.) You have had a good deal of ex- perience in the Colonial Service I have had about 37 years in Crown Colonies before 1 retired. I retired a year and a half ago, so that I do not know what has happened during that period.
987. You have had experience of more than one Colony --Yes, I have been in seven.
988. You told us that you would be ready to give evidence with regard to a possible improvement in fix. ing the responsibility between the technical stati of deporters, this inspiring cgineers and the consult ling clighter, What is your view of the prsent System -The present system is what I call conflict- ing. There are the consulting engineers, and what are val... schn.cal inspecting enginers, and the trinceal staff of the The work goes through thrferent hands, and you cannot arrive at a satisfactory solution of any difference of opinion. because it goes through too many hands. I think if there was one proper technical officer responsible directly to the Crown, he ought to be able to do the work. I will no way of a consulting enginer like Sir John Coole upon special harbour and railway works. hut up to the ordinary enginering work.
950. Making a mad or a bridge over a road?—Yes. I think ordinary things like that ought to be done by a technical officer responsible to the Crown Agents, and it should no pass through inspecting engineers, because it means double fees, as everybody has to be pail.
990. You would like to have an inspecting engineer from the Crown Agents' Department?-That would work, but I would suggest that the number of depart ments through which requisitions pass should be re- duced. I think there are too many from my experience. You do not get satisfaction because engineers, like doctors, differ, "and you get conflicting reports.
091. (Sir Ralph Moor.) Do you mean that the man should be an officer of the Crown Agents' staff, an that they should be directly responsible for him?- Directly responsible for the work; it should not go through what I call the consulting ngitor. would do away with either the inspecting engineer or the consulting engineer and have one responsib'e por- Fon only.
999. Attached to the Crown Agents' staff?– Yes,
993. For whom they are actually responsible?—You, 994. So that you fix the responsibility absolutely? - Yes,
995. And they cannot turn round and say: "The consulting engineer told us so-and-so"? - Yes, you would have one responsible person.
998. (Chairman.) Following up this you say that when mistakes occur it is very difficult to fix responst- bility? That is 60.
997. That has been so in your experience ?—Yes. You cannot fix it, and there ought to be some respon- sable head. I have always found it very ditficult to get satisfaction out of the Crown Agents; they put it
to the other, and you ito one
Never know who is to blam. In what 1 am saying now, I am talking as if I was a Governor. If the Crown Agents mak same mistake I am asked by the people In the Colony, "Why vìo you not get rid of the Crown Agents?" and I have to say, "They are my agents but the agents of the Secretary of State or the Crown, and 1 live no power." Then they say: If I had a London agem and he made a mess of any business I sent to him, as the Crown Agents have done in this case, I should dismiss him and get somebody else." That is how they always go for you.
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9. Do you mean by "they" your local Govern- ment?—Yes. I am talking in that way.
999, (Mr. Harris.) Is that a common feeling, do you think? I have heard a good deal of it in all the Colonies I have been in. Of course, mistakes occur, and any private agent would make mistakes. I do not that the Crown Agents make an unine number but they have made mistakes, and some big ones, which I have known about,
1000. Have you not been able to follow them through at all?-Not satisfactorily.
money,
1001. Do you remember recovering any penalty or anything of dat kind?-1′′have recovered small amounts, never anything big. There was one case I never heard the result of after I left the Gam- ben. It was a rather extraordinary case of a buoy which cost £300 or £400, and which was orderal to be inspected to see if it fated, because some buoys had been sent out a year or two before which when they were put into the water turnes turtle. It was, there fore, specially, ordered that this buoy was to be de- livered to inspection, that is to say, it was to be put in the dock in Liverpool before being hoisted into the steamer. When this buoy ultimately arrived out it did the very same thing-turned turtle. It was a bell buny. Then I began a big correspondence with the Crown Agents, buť 1 have never heard the result of that, as it was just when I left the Gambia.
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1009, (Chairman.) We have the result here: “Mr. Chamberlain accordingly directed that the Colonial Government and the Crown Agents should be in- formed" (this was on the legal opinion of Mr. Cox)
that he considered that the Crown Agents' Inspect ing Enginer was very much to blame, but that the Colonial Engineer was also to be held partly respon sible for the lens," ? –This is the first I have heard of it.
1003-4. The Crown Agents were held not to be liable themselves. Then we have the Jamaica case?—That is one of the eases I recollect, but I do not wish to think of any others I have a very small case which
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Sir ROBERT B. LLEWELYN, KUMG,
was very amusing. A Government House towel was when the new 11 home 28 A pattern, and towels came out they did not send back the pattern towel, and I got a minute to say that I was respon- sible for the towel when the annual inventory was made. I applied to the Crown Agents about it, but it took me a good deal of correspondence before I got any satisfaction. They said that some clerk would have to pay up the value of it, but I said I would have to pay as there was the inventory against me. ar many of those small irritating matters.
There
1005. On the whole, after your long experience on the general question, do you say that the system has worked well or bally-I think the Crown Agents work satisfactorily for loans, pensions, and salaries, but now with the changes which have occurred in trade in England, circulars, store lists, and many things like that, are sent out which have altered trade considerably since the Crown Agents were first estab
:shed. Every iron firm in London now sends out catalogues of bridge iron work, fencing work, cement, and everything of that kind, direct to the Colony, and people know the prices. With regard to smaller stores, you know the prices through the store lists from the Army and Navy Stores, Harrod's, and ther places. What I have often been questioned alut is that the Crown Agents allege that they give as the full discount. They send us out invoices with discount deducted, and I have been asked how the Crown Agents are supported: "If they give us the full discount, who pays the Crown Agents' salaries and the general office expenses?" Of course. I do nest I am not know what their turnover in stores is.
lking in any way of loans, salaries, and pensions, because I know those are as economically manage as they can be, but I do not know what the gross turnover of stores is-clothing, drugs, and postage stamps, and I do not know at all what the cost I think a f the Crown Agents Department is.
dal of difficulty might have been avoided in the post if the Governors of the Colonies had been what the salaries and expenses of the Crown I have been connected. Agn's Department were. 3, the Colonial Office for 10 years or more and up + this date. I have not the slightest iden what salary any one of the Crown Agents or their clerks get; I Love me ver hsen fold or sen it in a paper, atul I have not the slightest idea. When you are questioned about the expenses and discounts in the Colony, the Governor says I know nothing." and they think it rother funny that you do not know anything about it and get suspicions that there is some object in kep- ing it secret,
1006. They think they are a mysterions body?-- You, and that there is some object in k-eping it secret. I say I knew nothing about them. I do not know who pays them or what they get. or anything about hem. They tell us they give us the full discounts. and vol they are self-supporting.
1007. (Mr. Leather) Are the Colonies not charged a prontage. The only charge I know of is that at ihe end of every quarter there is a charge for sta tionery. They charge a percentage on the amount of Stationery von buy. I do not know whether that is
sort of crit rion of the business they do.
1008, (Mr. Harris.) It is charged upon all stores?— I have never seen. a direct charge on the gross sum # the accounts,
10091 should think you ought to have done so? - It know that I have noticed that: I have always noticed the direct charge for stationery pur
Fused arel, of course, they get commissions oui hans. anel that sort of business,
1010, (Chaizman.1 The reason we ask all these ques. tions is becan we are asked, to advise the Secretary of State as to whether it would be advisable to make the Crown Agents' Office more in harmony with the Civil Service-in other words more a branch. f the Cavil Service, where of course the salaries of gteryderly would be perfectly well known, and where the scale of pay, pensions, and every thing else would be as in other branches. In your judg
ent after all this time do
think that you would be a better plan?-I certainly think there ught to be some control over the management of the in that way. As the commissions paid by the
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24 June 19.
Colonios krep up the office, I think we ought to know how the money is being spem in the department in Engisol by our Agents. There has always been a great want of sympathy with the Crown Agents in the Colonies; they are Crown Agents and not Colonial. agents. I do not know that They have ever taken a young colonial into their office and there are some very decent young fellows in Barbadoes, and elsewhere in the West Indies,
1011. (Mr. Hurris) We had it in evidence the other dny that they had done s?—I did not know that that had been done, but it occurred to me that they ought to take a young fellow in from the Colonies. When a man comes home from the Colonies he goes to his Agent, and the ordinary expectations from a Colonial Agent is a person who engages rooms for you or takes ' in your children, but there is no sympathy in the office of the Crown Agents.
1012. You would not add that to their functions?— No, but I think they ought to be more, what I would call Colonial Agents,
1013. (Chairman.) You think they are not only mys-
1 do not-- terious but aloof?-Certainly, I think so. suppose they know anybody from the Colonies except the officials who get their salaries. There are several leading merchants who come home every year, but I do not know that the Crown Agents have ever seen them or know anything about them. I refer to the unofficial numbers of the Council and people of that kind.
1014. They would like to be regarded as ambassadors, so to speak, in matters of social affairs?—Quite so, so I must as to help them a little bit socially, and so on. say the Secretary of State's Department has very much improved in that way lately; they look after the people From the Colonies much better now than they dad soine years ago, and that to a certain extent has helped the Crown Agents, although they have never done anything that I know of.
1015. You say in your letter to us that the Crown Agents are rather thought to be Crown masters, and somewhat too independent of the Colony which has to employ them—Yes.
1016. That is your considered view?-Yes, that is what I have been told by many people; they say: "They are not our agents, but our masters, and you can get no satisfaction out of them." We very seldom have. It is said that they do not sympathise with the people, and naturally they are not popular,
1017. (Mr. Harris.) Has that grown of late years or has that been always so?-I think it has been so I can go always; I have always known it to be so. back to 30 years ago in Jamaica and tell a case about the harbour master's boat, and much dissatisfaction there was at that time. I think the Colonies to a certain extent have got tired of complaining. When it takes about six months to get a towel back one gets disgusted.
1018. (Sir Ralph Momie) What would you suggest for Temedying the defects you have indicated?--I should have to think that out a bit before I could suggest a scheme. I do not want to abolish the Crown Agents altogether, because I think they are very useful. "The Colonies could not do without agents in London to manage their loans and the payments of their salaries. pensions, and so forth, for" there must be some staff to look after that.
1019. (Mr. Leathes.) Is there any reason why that should not be done by the Colonial Office-I do not know whether the Paymaster-General would take that up or whether you could put it on to any other office in England.
1020. (Afr. Gibson.) Similar duties are performed by a Department of the India Office for Indian officials? -You would have to have a special branch.
1021. (Mr. Harris.) Do you think it would be an improvement to have the Crown Agents more in touch with the Colonial Office?—I do not think the Colonial Office coull bok after all the details which the Crown Agents look after now. The Colonial Office might have A special branch for salaries. pensions, loans, and that sort of busiIPS.
1022. (Mr. Gibson.) With regard to the purchase of stores. I gather that the Colonies would depre- cate from what you have said in your evidence the
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