PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE
Reference :-
C.O.885
19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON
ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO
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19 Jour 1908?
CROWN AGENTS' ENQUIRY COMMITTEE:
Mr. C. V. Bellamy,
are represented by their lack of knowledge of the locality-That is precisely so.
649. And insufficient consultation with those who know the place; is that it?-Precisely.
650). (Sir Francis Mowatt.) But that is as regards
stores sent out from this country?—Yes. Of course. our requirements in stores, such as tools or anything of that kind, vary in the different Colonies; for instance, you use in the cast what is called a hoe, but in West Afrien you use a pickaxe for the same purpose. That he in the East Indies goes by a particular name; it is called a mammoty. If you speak to one of the inspecting engineers in the Crown "Agents' Office of a mammoty he will not know in the slightest what you mean, but if you spoke to a retired officer from a Public Works Department of a mammoty, he would know exactly what you meant.
651. (Chairman.) And what you_wanted—_—_—_ ?—I merely quote that as an instance where local know- ledge is essential to understanding the particular terms yo employ.
652. (Mr. Harris.) But you do not remember any case where the Eastern hoë was sent to West Africa or the West African pickaxe to the Eastern Colonies? - do remember that an indent was sent home for some mammoties, and an explanation was necessary as to what a mammoty was. A gentleman was anxious to introduce the mammoty, or, I will call it a hoe, as every member of the Committee will understand it.
653. (Sir Francis Mowatt.) I suggest that if it had been called a hoe all through the difficulty would never have arisen -The use of the hoe is a very important thing indved in the East. because the Indian coolie can use the hoe with great dexterity, and he will move a quantity of earth very much faster than by means of a pick or shovel. Sir Walter Egerton was very anxious to introduce this mammoty hoe in West Africa and the indent was sent home accordingly. and then the question arose what was a mammoty hoe.
654. (Chairman.) And there was nobody in the Crown Agents' Office who knew?—No. I do not think anybody knew; possibly Major Carmichael might have known.
655. Broadly speaking, you would say that there is an insufficient amount of local knowledge?--Yes.
656. Of course, in the case of the mammoty hoes the lack of knowledge appeared to cause delay, but, as a rule. is the business fairly promptly done or not?- I have seen a marked improvement in the execution of indents in the last two or three years. Of course. I have been in close contact with the Crown Agents" Department for over 19 years now in different parts of the world.
657. I will read out your former service. You are at present Director of Public Works in Southern Nigeria, and your former service was first in the Ceylon Public Works Department; then you were Colonial Engineer of Dominica; you were Director of Public Works of Cyprus. and Director of Public Works at Lagos, and when Lagos and Southern Nigeria were amalgamated you became Director of Public Works of the combined Colonies, namely, the Colony of Southern Nigeria. Those are the, places you know particularly ?—Yes,
G5%. (Sir Francis Moralt.) Your evidence up till now, sir, has been directed to the quality of the stores supplied from this country for public works?--Yes.
650. You have not alluded to the question of efficiency of the Crown Agents' inspection of the gradual construction of public works on the spot. such as making a railroad, making a bridge, or mak ing a canal to watch. for instance, how the contract is being conducted. Have you anything to say upon their methods in those branches of your business ?- I had some three or four years ago, complaint of the character of certain ironwork sent ont to Lagos, for the roofing of the Court House there. The joints were badly fitting and badly made, and the result was that the cost of the construction of the ironwork, after it had arrived in the Colony, was very expensive indeed. I have reason to believe, and I recorded the fact at the time. in correspondence in the Colony, that the struc-
tural ironwork was not properly inspected before it was shipped to the Colony.
660. Were those public works being carried on under contract by a company?—They were being carried out departmentally in the Colony. The materials were being supplied at home under contract, as is usually
the case.
661. The inspection of the actual construction of the work out there was not within the province of the Crown Agents?—Yes; the inspection of the structural ironwork before it left England was a duty to be per- formed by the Crown Agents' Department.
662. Yes, I understand that; but when those stores got out, and when the railway, or bridge, or so on, was being put up the inspection of the work of putting it up and carrying out the plan did not rest with the Crown Agents?No; the Crown Agents' responsibility ceased as soon as the materials were shipped; but the number of misfits in the joints in that structural iron. work led me to believe that the work had not been pro perly inspected in the erecting yard at home before being shipped.
603, (Sir Ralph 3foor.) But that is not the case in all works-that the Crown Agents' responsibility ceases when the material is shipped. Take the case of the construction of a railway: when a railway is taken in hand by the Crown Agents they are responsible for that from the start to the finish. They are not con- structed departmentally-When work is being carried out by a consulting engineer, the responsibility for the work rests. I suppose, as much with the Crown Agents as with the consulting engineer, and vice versů.
664. But it has nothing to do with the local depart- ment whatever?-Nothing to do with the local depart-
ment.
665. (Sir Francis Moratt.) Have you had any ex- perience of the way in which the Crown Agents have carried out the inspection of works in a Colony-No: that is all under the consulting engineers, whoever they may be.
666. You have no recommendations or observation to make with regard to any difference it might be desirable to make in that branch of the Crown Agents" work?-No; I have nothing to say to that.
667. (Dr. Leathes.) As to the consulting engineers of whom you speak, who would appoint them 7-The Crown Agents have a number of consulting engineers who are entrusted with the execution of certain work.. 668. I think what we wanted to know was how that system worked ---So far as I know, it works quite satisfactorily. The consulting engineers usually en- gagerl are men of undoubted professional ability.
669. (Sir Balph Moor.) But they have no local know. Jedge again-They usually, in the case of a large undertaking, send out their own men to acquire that local knowledge. For instance, in the case of a raii- way, they send out a staff of surveyors and engineers. to make the preliminary survey and prepare their reports and acquire the local knowledge which the con- sulting engineers individually do not possess. That system, as far as my experience goes, has worked en tirely satisfactorily.
670. (Mr. Gibson.) Where were you, as Director of Works, in 1901, when Mr. Chamberlain's inquiries were sent out to the various Colonies-In Cyprus.
071. You were then satisfied with the work of the Crown Agents-As a general rule, yes. Of course, that is going back seven years now.
672. Replies were sent from the Colonies. With n gard to your point as to want of experience in the home Inspecting Engineers, I take it that if there was a general branch of inspecting engineers who could combine service at home and in the Colonies, that would, to a large extent, meet your point?-It would. certainly.
673, (Mr. Bailey.) Are you quite satisfied with the general regulation which forbids Colonial officers ob taining their supplies in the colony itself? Every- thing at present, I believe, has to be indented through the Crown Agents -All European materials have to be indented for through the Crown Agents, and there is a very stringent rule on the subject.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. C. V. BELLAMY,
674. Are you satisfied with that?-Not wholly so, because occasionally European materials of the same quality can be obtained from local merchants at a lower price.
675. And in a shorter time?-And in
time.
shorter
676. Do you think Colonial officers should be al lowed to exercise a discretion in such matters-I think that Colonial officers should be allowed to exer- rise a certain amount of discretion in a matter of that kind.
077. (Chairman.) Is there anything else you would like to say to us? We have heard your evidence with much interest: is there any general point further that ecurs to you?--I have already said what I think would lead to an improvement, and that has been my firm conviction for some time past.
678. One last question before you go. We quite understand the force of your recommendation which you made for improving the existing staff of the Crown Agents; hava von formed any strong opinion as
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119 June 1908.
to whether it would be wiser to bring the Crown Agents' office closer into harmony with the Civil Ser- vice or not? In the course of your long experience you have been in the Civil Service, and the Crown Agents to a certain extent have not; what is your view-I think that if the engineering branch of the Crown Agents' office were recruited from Colorial officers, and the practice discontinued of paying the inspecting engineers at home a rate of 24 per cent., or whatever it may be, on all engineering stores, economy would be the result. Obviously, it is only human nature probably, when a man, an engineer, or what ever he may be, is paid a percentage on the articles he selects, it is not worth his while to keep down the cost of those articles. If he draws 24 per cent. on a certain class of goods he gets a higher gross return the greater the cost of those goods.
679. You would recommend that he should be in the Colonial Service and be paid a fixed salary irrespec- tive of the value of the goods?—Yes, I would prefer to abolish that percentage as regards the individual officer, and let him draw a fixed salary. I think economy and efficiency would arise from that.
The witness withdrew.
Adjourned to Monday next at half-past 10 o'clock.
FOURTH DAY,
Monday, 22nd June, 1908.
At the Colonial Office, Downing Street.
PRESENT:
COLONEL J. E. B. SEELY. D.S.O., M.P, (Chairman).
The Rt. Hon. Sir F. MoWATT, G.C.B., I.8.0.
Sir RALPH Moor, K.C.M.G.
H. J. Grв80s, Esq., C.B.
R. BAILEY, Esq., M.V.O., 1.8.0.
Sir ALBERT SPICER, Bart., M.P. S, M. LEATHes. Exp.
C. A. Harris, Esq., C.B., C.M.G.
Mr. H. W. Banock, called and examine!.
650. (Chairman.) You are the Accountant-General of the India Office-That is so.
081. You have seen the terms of reference?- I have. 682. The first question I wished to ask you was with gard to the sirvigth of your department approxi nately in number and the rates of salaries?—I think it may be of assistance to you if I hand you in that paper, which gives you an outline of the salaries and the stuff and a description of the various officers. Alanding in the same,)
6943. Have you one copy only ?—I have another copy Jure.
684. (Mr. Gibson.) Those particulars åre in the India Offie Estimates, are they not?—Yes, in a shhtly different form; this is an amplification of the paper you have there.
685. (Chairman.) Are the rates of salaries basel upon a scale which has been fixed for a great number of years.
or does it vary from time to time? It has not varied for many years, the present scale having been in force for about 14 years. The junior clerks in the Accountant-General's Depart- ment used to rise to a maximum of £450 up till 1894; they have now, as you will see, been raised to a maxi
*se Aygenlix
A. J. HARDING (Secretary).
mum of £500, but otherwise the general scale has remained unaltered, I should think, for 20 years, except as regarils the second-class clerks; in their case, we follow the Treasury practice, and the new scale of pay for second-livision clerks has been adopted in our office as throughout the Service.
696. Throughout the Civil Service]—Yes, I believe all the offices that are under the Treasury regulations have given the option to their clerks; we gave an option similarly, and it was accepted by all concerned. 687. And it is regarded as satisfactory by the staff, as far as you know? As at present satisfactory-yes. 688. With regard to the mode of recruiting, is that the same as in the Civil Service?--Yes, our first-class establishment is recruited by the first-class examina- tion.
689. And your second-class establishment -By the second-division examination.
690. And the whole of your staff is recruited through the Civil Service Commissioners?-Entirely. You are speaking now of my own department 7
691. Yes. It applies equally to the whole of the India Office, and has done for very many years. Wo have just a few men in the office, remnants of the old hired writer system, but there are only one or two of them left.
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