PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE
Reference :-
mmmmmin C.O.885
19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON
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22
15 Jan 1908.]
CROWN AGENTS' ENQUIRY COMMITTEE:
Mr. E. G. Bunta, C.S.I.
the view of your staff-that they should be paid as other Vivil servants are?--I should not think they would mint where they got their money from so long as they got their money, provided the revenue was Kinnel,
416. (Sir Francis Moralt.) What is done with the percentage on the stores which you receive? I sup- pose it is paid over to the Indian Exchequer !-We receive po percentage.
447. And your salaries are not paid out of it ?— There is an exception; 1 cannot tell you what it is- possibly the Acountant-General when you see him may be able to tell you-but with regard to certain provhi- cial funds we charge them 2 per cent, on actual cost, which coms to a very small amount practically negli gible.
448. That answers ny question: What do you da with that 2 per cent?-I am afrail I cannot tell you.
449. But having received if it is carried to some account?-It is carril to sume account, and the Accountant-General could tell you about it; I do not know what is done with it. I dɛnot recover it. It may be dealt with either in England or in India; I do not know.
450, (Chairman.) Now about the staff. you said you could give us a statement as to the strength of your staff and the rates of their salaries -I have not had time to submit a statement, because I only had notice at 12 o'clock on Saturday that you wished to see uje to-day, and I was unfortunately going down to the country. The whole department is governed by the Director-General of Stures, and he is assisted at the India Office by a leputy, and at the India Store Depôt by a superintendent and a deputy superintendent.
451. That is over the river?--Yes. At the India Office we have 3 senzor clerks and 4 junior clerks, anel in different grades we have 20 second-class elerks and 4 clerks of a special technical nature. At the India Store Depôt we have an assistant to the superintendent and 10 supervisors. Those supervisors are men of a class between the senior and junior clerks of the first division of the Civil Service. They are men who have heen almost wholly promoted from clerks of the second division. and they have been trained at the India Store Depit to take charge of Departments, such as the Patterns, the Accounts, Invoicing, and so on. We have. besides, 15 second-class clerks. 39 inspectors of stores of Various grades, and a few other miscellaneous appointments of which I will give you a list. This is only roughly made out in my writing, and might not be quite intelligible.
452. What roughly are the salaries paid; for in- staner, let us take the case of these supervisors, what do they get--The supervisors of the first grale get from £100 to £500 a year, and of the second grade from £50 to £400.
453. And these clerks?-The clerks are ordinary seale of the Civil Service.
on the
454. (Sir Francis Moralt.) A large proportion are Second Division clerks ?—Yes, we have only seven clerks of the First Division in the whole department.
455, (Mr. Gibum.) Practically the whole of your clerical stuff ones under the first or second division scale Practically it all comes under the second division seule; we have only seven of the first division in the whole department.
456. (Sir Francis Moratt.) These supervisors are really staff officers of the second division?--Yes, and our inspectors an all technical men.
457. (Chairman.) How do you recruit these people? -The clerks all come from the Civil Servicŭ Com- mission with two exceptions; there is one sperial clerk for runnce stores and one special clerk for railway stores, and we get them wherever we can find them best.
458. About the supervisors are they technical?— No.
459. And the inspectors?- All the inspectors are technical. I have 39 inspectors,
460. How do you recruit them -- We get them from their own particular trades.
481. Such as? The man who is a steel examiner must be trained in some steel factory; it must have been the business of his life.
462. Do you advertise?-Oh, no: sometimes we do if we have any difficulty. The best way is to make, inquiries in the trade.
43. At the great steel works?--Yes, and some of cour then cone from Woolwich.
4. Now as to the seniors in your Department, how are they appointed. How were you appointed 1 vas appointed a temporary chrk, and I'lemained a temporary clerk for two years, and 1 have worked my way up since.
469. You have gone up the ladder? -Exactly, from the lowest rung to the fup.
10. Is that the method which you should recom hend pursuing Yes, if a man will do what I did.
467. But will a man? - Ah! that I cannot tell you. I took every opportunity of learning; I spent holidays at works and at Woolwich, and travelled all over the country at my own expense and learned. 1 know my limitations; I do not pretend to be a technical man. but I can check some of the technical men,
468. This is a point we have specially to advise upon as to the staff and how it should be appointed, and the great difficulty does arise in the method of select- ing the people at the top '--My idea, if you will allow me to say so, is that if you have a good administrator at the top the less he knows about technical matters perhaps the better, provided he has absolutely efficient advice.
4. You think you could rely upon the method of letting each one work his way up and rise to the top of their side of it by his own ability, and let the tech- nical people brought in from outside be the only persons with technical knowledge selected by other methods?-1 think, subject to the reservation I made, you might, but it depends very much on the indi Vidual.
your
staff
450. (Sir Francis Moratt.) Is not worked as all great public departments are worked, that is say, if you find a man in the ordinary classification of ability and rising you let him rise?— Crtainly.
171. But when you cannot find a man (although th are plenty of gol respectable men) really quali fil to fill the most responsible post in the office you find him where you can-That is inevitable.
472, ('hairman.) With regard to the tenure and rates of pension, are they the same as in the Civil Service-Exactly the same. Based on the Treasury
rules.
473. And you think that is on the whole most satis- factory think so; I think it works very satisfac torily.
474. Supposing this Committee were to ask you whether you would like to be plaevel on the same basis as the Crown Agents Office, what would you say?—In point of view of salary. I should.
475. But barring the salaries and pensions, from the point of view of tenure and management of the office you would say no? I am not sure about that; if you give me that salary and give me full power I think I should like to take the Crown Agents' posi- tion.
176. What do you say about the staff?-1 shuuli like to go into the figures: I have not got the Chown Agents' figures, but Sir Edward Law, who was then Finance Minister of the Government of India, came to me on day and discussed a proposal for making me independent of the India Office and allowing me, say. 5 per cent, on my stores; putting the Stores Office in the City and letting me control the whole thing. I said I should be delighted, but that I did not think it would be a paying game for Government. We cost 14 per cent, and he offered me 5.
477. Was that a proposal seriously entertained? It was a proposal he meant to put forward if I had supported it he was very keen on it, and he discussed the matter with me our in India when I was there on deputation.
478, (Sir Francis
Mowatt.) Di I
]]ust gather from your answer. that personally you would be
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. E. G. BruLs, C.8.1.
glad to adopt such a scheme, but from an administra- live and economical point of view of the Indian Govern- ment you would not think it was a desirable arrange- ment Precisely,
479. (J. Bailey.) After yon have placed an order for any work, do you find serious delay in getting that work excented!—It depends upon the state of the market in the country; we frequently have very serious delays.
480). In all classes of work? -Anything- 151, You have a large store in Lambeth, have yon ned? Yes.
42. Would you kindly explain to us what you keep in that store? We do not keep anything; we get rid of it as fast as we can.
483. You do not keep any stock, for instance, of standardised articles--We keep no stock at all.
481. About your shipping agent; have you in your mind the figure at the present moment of what you pay him a year?-We pay him 3d. a tun. 1 will not be quite certain as to the details, but I can say that in 1905-65 we paid the shipping agent £4,185.
485. Do you think it better, from the point of view, of course, of the administration of the office, to employ an outside shipping agent rather than have a man of your own ?– He is practically a man of our own; I think it better that he should have an outside business, because he is in constant touch with the trale, and he would not be under the suspicion that a Government man would be if he were in the City. He can get us better information than we can get for ourselves.
4. gathered from you just now. however, that he has very little private trade ! 1 do not know what his private trade is; I have not asked, but I think the bulk of his business is ours.
23
[15 June 1908.
487. You would probably get him a good deal more cheaply if you cimployed an officer "yourselves?—I' doubt it; 1 am not quite sure.
448. Taking into account the counter-balancing advantages you have mentioned, you think on the whole it is better it should be as it is? I think so.
4. Would you tell me what the pay of the technical inspector is ?—There are two grades: the junior grado commence at £150 and rise to £250; the higher grade commence at £250 and rise to £350.
490, (Sir Francis Moncatt.) I understand you will - put in a list ?--Yes; I will have a list* properly made out and put it in.
491. (Mr. Harris.) Following up a question which the Chairman has asked you, you apparently have no great desire to have a more autocratic power over your staff?-No. I can control them perfectly.
482. I have gathered from the Crown Agents that, in their opinion, if you made their staff more like the Civil Service they could not control it as they would like to be able to. You do not think there is any fear of that?—I should have no fear of it.
493. (Mr. Gibson.) Has it ever been considered at the India Office whether you should employ, as the War Office do, the Admiralty Transport Department to place your shipping orders 7-1 do not know whether it has ever been considered, but I should not approve it. We can do so much better for all shipping work. Besides, the Admiralty is not absolutely comparable with ourselves because they are shipping all over the world to all sorts of little ports, to which there is no line of steamers, whereas we only ship to India mainly to five or six ports to each of which there are several lines of steamers, I do not think we have anything to learn from the Admiralty in the way of freight work --I hope not.
The witness withdrew.
Adjourned to Friday next at half-past 10 o'clock.
THIRD DAY,
Friday, 19th June, 1908.
At th: Colonial Office, Downing Street.
PRESENT:
COLONEL J. E. B. SEELY, D.S.0., M.P. (Chairman).
The Rt. Hon. Sir F. MowaTT, G.C.B., I.S.O.
Sir RALE Moon, K.C.M.G.
II. J. GIBBON, Esq., C.B.
R. BAILEY, Esq., M.V.O., 1.8.0. S. M. LEATUES, Esq
C. A. Hannis, Esq., C.B., C.M.G.
A. J. HARDING (Secretary).
Mr. J. D. Rɛɛs, UND), CLE., M.P., called and examined.
494, (Chairman.) Would you like to begin straight away and tell the Committee in broad outline what you wish to bring to their notice?--I am rather at The disposal of the Committee; I was asked to come as a witness, and I have come, and I would machi rather, if i may venture to suggest it, answer to the best of my ability what I am asked, and then, if we touch upon anything that particularly concerns me, I will endeavour to enlarge upon it as far as you think desiralde,
495. We shall be glad to adopt that method if you will tell us upon what partientar points or which side of the matter you hold the strongest vows and have the fullest, knowledge?--When you stated in the
House what were the terms of reference, I asked if they included a consideration of the position of the Crown Agents as intermediaries between the com- ma reial world, the City in short, and the Colonial Ofice, and you said that practically the terms of ruference did include that subject.
196. I should say at once that the Committee have decides that in order that they may form a just estimate of how far it is desirable to alter the arrange- ments in the Crown Agent Office, they must ascer tain, broadly speaking, what the Crown Agents do, and how they do it, and if general satisfaction is given.
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