PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE
Reference :-
C.O.885
18 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON
ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO
Fourteenth Day,
9 May 1907.
IMPERIAL SURTAX ON
FOREIGN
IMPORTS.
78
ALSO PRESENT :
The Right Honourable D. LLOYD GEORGE, M.P., President of the Board
of Trade.
Mr. H. LLEWELLYN SMITH, C.B., Permanent Secretary to the Board of
Trade.
Mr. A. WILSON Fox, C.B., Comptroller-General of the Commercial,
Statistical, and Labour Department of the Board of Trade.
Mr. G. J. STANLEY, C.M.G., of the Board of Trade.
The Right Honourable SYDNEY BUXTON, M.P., Postmaster-General. Mr. H. BABINGTON SMITH, C.B., C.S.I., Permanent Secretary to the Post
Office.
The Right Honourable IIERBERT GLADSTONE, M.P., Secretary of State for
the Home Department.
Sir MACKENZIE D. CHALMERS, K.C.B., C.S.I., Permanent Secretary to the
Home Office.
Mr. J. PEDDER, of the Home Office.
The Right Honourable H. H. ASQUITH, M.P., Chancellor of the
Exchequer.
Mr. W. BLAIN, C.B., of the Treasury.
IMPERIAL SURTAX ON FOREIGN IMPORTS. CHAIRMAN: Gentlemen, the first resolution on the Agenda is one that was submitted yesterday by Mr. Deakin. Mr. Lloyd George has been good enough to attend at some inconvenience, as he is due in the House of Commons at half-past eleven, so perhaps it will be possible to expedite the proceedings as much as possible in order that he leave.
may
Mr. DEAKIN Lord Elgin and gentlemen: In order to permit us to enjoy the inestimable advantage of hearing the President of the Board of Trade without any loss of the time at his disposal in listening to me, I will confine myself in submitting this resolution, to a very few general remarks. I think his cross-examination yesterday helped to elucidate the matter very His well.
If I understand the position, what we have arrived at is this. Majesty's Government for various reasons says that any consideration of trade preference is impossible, that nothing is to be done in that direction. That disposes of one of the branches of the means which we favour as tending to promote Imperial unity--the same unity in times of peace and in industrial matters as are necessarily required for self-preservation in times of war. From the same motives, therefore, we now proceed to some allied propositions which make for preference of British citizens by British citizens, of British purchasers by British sellers, and of British consumers by British producers. We gather generally that on this question, at all events, His Majesty's Ministers in this country have an open mind. Indeed, there were sympathetic references made both by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the President of the Board of Trade to these other means of facilitating intercourse, increasing inter-Imperial trade, and obtaining the advantages which flow from those very desirable developments.
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We seem to be agreed that something has to be done to provide increased facilities for communication by mail steamers, with their attendant increased facilities of communication for travellers; improved cable com- munication which means cheaper cable communication and more of it; the lowering of such charges as those levied in the Suez Canal, with which Sir Joseph Ward has exhaustively dealt, and kindred propositions, which, raising no fiscal question, imply the extension and enhancement of our present means of communication and trade. The great advantage of this development, especially of communication, that it benefits both ends and any intermediate dominions. It cannot be said that the Mother Country is not herself most deeply interested in this question, even if for the moment we looked upon the Mother Country as severed in her special interests from her Dominions over the Sea. Here is the centre of all communication; every mode of communication has shares of its benefits and confers the greater share in this country. Consequently, the money expended on improving means of communication, whether by ship or by cable, are directly to the advantage of the industries and the people of this country. They are also advantageous at the other end to our interests. Now, I think, in matters of communication our differences in population are measured by the propor- tionate gain which accompanies them, or, in other words, that the expenditure of the Mother Country in such matters, if in proportion to its population, would at least be met by proportionate benefits from this means. So also in the case of cables and of the general charges imposed on British commerce, not only those levied at the Suez Canal, but any others which tend to diminish the full use of present opportunities. They may be assessed either by population or trade. Having got to that stage, the next question is: How shall such propositions be given effect to? How shall they be realised? What concrete shape shall they assume? It has always been possible for individual Dominions, or several together, to approach the British Government or each other in regard to postal contracts, or in relation to cables, by going the length even of State ownership to provide for conjoint action. I think that on the whole, speaking generally, the postal contracts which have been made have been well worth the money expended upon them--exceptions excepted--and that they still continue to be well worth the money spent upon them, although the mere postal interest is, if anything, less than it ever was before. It is always tending to become less, so great are the other advantages associated with the use of swift and up-to-date steamers with their advantages for the travelling of persons and for the carriage of goods which can afford to pay rather higher freights. We have come These count really for very much in modern postal contracts.
to that stage when I understand His Majesty's Government are prepared to consider propositions of this sort, but if they are considered only in an individual fashion with the particular Dominions concerned, we shall have made no advance on the methods which have been employed for many years past. Surely the opportunity has come when we can make a real advance on those methods. Without this Conference, and without more than a general discussion, something may be done now to help us all after this Conference. Is not our duty to seize the opportunity while we are here to consider the means by which the consideration of inter-Imperial business questions may be made more pressing and immediate as well as practical? This resolution suggests one means to that end-the means originally proposed by Mr. Hofmeyr, afterwards further developed by Sir George Sydenham Clarke, and I think further simplified in the proposal which I now lay before this Conference. This implies first of all some fund out of which we can finance any useful general agencies. Next, after creating a fund, although that inverts the usual order of proceedings to some extent--while obtaining it you draw your representatives together for the special purpose of
Fourteenth Day.
9 May 1907.
IMPERIAL SURTAX ON FOREIGN IMPORTS.
(Mr. Deakin.)
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C.O.885
18 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON
ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO
Fourteenth Day.
9 May 1907.
IMPERIAL
SURTAX ON FOREIGN IMPORTS.
(Mr. Deakin.)
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dealing in a simple business fashion with a series of business propositions which may refer to any one of the things I have mentioned, or to any other projects of the same character which are regarded as of Imperial importance, and to which two or more governments, counting the United Kingdom and the parts of the Empire represented, may be able and may desire to combine for the common good. The representatives will meet for that practical purpose, sift these business proposals from a business standpoint, closely examine their cost, carefully consider the returns to be obtained, and look at all the associated consequences, and then prepare schemes, some of which will interest only the United Kingdom and a particular dominion, others the United Kingdom and two or more, others can perhaps be devised which would interest them all. Then those propositions require to be submitted to the Legislatures affected before they can be endorsed. So that what we get is, first of all, a fund; next the expert consideration on a business basis of the means of employing that fund. So when the several Parliaments came to deal with it they would be fully equipped to judge these propositions, to accept or reject them as they please, or perhaps modify them by referring them back, the proportionate contributions of each being scrutinised by each party. It is not necessary to work that out now in detail. At all events, we should be face to face with the certainty of having money to spend for Imperial purposes, and practical proposals how to spend it after thorough examination had satisfied the different Legislatures. I can see no interference with self-government, or with fiscal policy. First of all, the amount suggested by Sir G. Sydenham Clarke is only one per cent., and that amount need not be levied on the goods, but provided by contribution.
Mr. WINSTON CHURCHILL By subvention.
Mr. DEAKIN Yes, so that the fiscal question cannot possibly arise. I see the President's estimate yesterday was quite correct. It is reckoned, roughly speaking, on a recent year at 4,600,000.--it would be higher this year when every return is higher-but, taking it roughly, four and a half millions one year with the other, as a rule, would be likely to be made available on that scale. You are not obliged to spend that each year, but could carry it on, if necessary, and accumulate it for a particular purpose, either for a series of expenditures year by year for the one purpose, or by a capital outlay. I need not go into details. I think I have made the general sense quite plain. It is to bring us to a point, if possible, and to give a positive character if we can and a direct impulse to these means of action already approved by the Government. I think there is a great deal to commend this, or I should not lay it before the Conference. Allow me to say that not only have I no proprietary rights in the proposition, but if I had, I should recognise that this was not a developed plan to stand upon at all. Any amendment which will make it more effective, and any reshaping of it which would accomplish the same end, would commend itself to me. It would only then become a question of degree, which was the speediest and most practicable form to give it. I am not wedded to it. But we do want, as it seems to me, some means of concentrating the consideration of all the legislatures upon these Imperial problems.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I should like to know something about your idea of the administration of the fund.
Mr. DEAKIN: If the contribution of a particular Dominion were so many hundreds of thousands of pounds, shillings and pence, the arrangement would not be that that amount should be spent merely upon the Dominion in question, but the principle observed would be that practically to all intents and purposes each community would control and see expended the amount of its contribution with its own consent.
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Mr. WINSTON CHURCHILL: Do you include Imperial defence among Imperial purposes"?
Mr. DEAKIN Not these Imperial purposes, though that was the original proposal. Mr. Hofmeyr put Imperial defence first. That was after- wards deflected to industrial proposals of this sort, because defence was found to raise a great many difficult questions; even so ardent an enthusiast for Imperial defence as Sir George Sydenham Clarke abandoned that side of the proposal and devoted himself to this kind of proposal. My idea, therefore, is that practically the whole sum contributed by the United Kingdom should be disposed of by the Parliament
of the United Kingdom as it approved schemes, speaking roughly, to that extent. Certainly none of its money could be expended on anything else without its consent. Without requiring the fund to be kept to a shilling or a penny, each Parliament would control its own contribution and require to give its own consent to its use.
Mr. WINSTON CHURCHILL: Supposing the contributions of any particular parties to this agreement were not expended in a given
year.
Mr. DEAKIN: Carry them forward.
Mr. WINSTON CHURCHILL: Or supposing a proposal was made that they were to be expended in a particular way, and the Parliaments refused to ratify it, the sum would be carried over and roll on.
Mr. DEAKIN: Accumulated until some project was arrived at which met with the approval of that particular legislature or until the agreement to make such a levy expired. This is very far from being an Imperial federa- tion, very far from creating a body having authority either to raise money or spend money after it is raised. It is quite apart from any proposition to interfere with self-government. I admit that at once, and also admit that any endeavour to bring about co-operation in this way, when a number of legisla- tures are concerned, is open to all the criticism suggested by our knowledge of the difficulty of getting them to act together. But we give them at least a means and motive to act together; we bring proposals before them and put the responsibility on the proper shoulders. We enable their electorates to We say whether they will refuse to combine for Imperial purposes or not. cannot do more than appeal to the people and the legislatures, and put the responsibility on those who decline to co-operate. As it seems to me, the great value of this proposition or any similar proposition is first, that it points to action, and next, to practical action. It favours immediate action, and if that action is not taken and that co-operation is not brought about, it puts the responsibility on the right shoulders. Let us know which are the peoples who refuse to act and why they refuse to act with their kindred. Το These are business propositions, and will have no party character. cheapen a cable or make a new cable, establish or not establish a new line of steamers, are business propositions which do not involve any party quarrel this is not between the legislatures or parties concerned. They can only say,
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sufficiently remunerative; that is not sufficiently practical; we are paying too much for it; here is a better scheme." The whole consideration would turn upon questions of pounds, shillings, and pence. Such projects would not involve fiscal policy or impair self-government, but provide a means for common action, and in that way bring pressure to bear in favour of action. I do not discuss who pays the tax, how proportions are to be established, or
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Fourteenth Day.
9 May 1907.
IMPERIAL SURTAX ON
FOREIGN IMPORTS.