PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE
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mimimmi...
C.O. 882
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21 Jun 190
MAULITH 1:OYAL COMMISSIOs, Hont
Sir CAVENDISH BOYLE. KAMAG
the wil jou was, and 1 thank the alumastraten would
23 dathie uit task to met uwch
To Do 1 understand you to mean that it would berosented that it would make the anothels per- Yes, that is manently opposed to the Government -
saying it in the way proped by Sir Edward Malley, and carrying out literally our present Consti tution I do not say that a hange in the Constitution would be absolutely resented
1609 am only speaking with reference to the existing Constitution? Yes, in adopting such a course as he proposes
1610 Have you yourarif, during your own adminis tration, felt the difficulties of the position as it is *-- You, on several occasions, though I have never had to exercise my casting vote on any important principle, nor have I ever been confronted by a solid bely, except en one nerasjon, and then I do not think the question
the to the vote
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1611 Then, is it your opinion that the Constitution -I am now dealing with the Constitution us it written is not the best possible for Mauritius 7-i du not think it is.
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1812 la what way would you like to see it altered? -Personally. I would prefer to see it altered in the matter of unofficial representation, were it possible. would like to see the large majority of Indians resident I always held that here represented, were it possible
FLOW
1613 When you sy were it possible," what do you mean by that-It necessitates improved educa. tn It necessitates the people to fiting by the tucation facilities which are now given to them, and It must take a certain number of years before that will he possible, even if it ever is possible, with such a population us we have
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1614. Do you think it is not possible now?
I think the result of an extended think absolutely not franchise now is greatly to be deprecated,
1615. Then, do you dismiss that from your mind? -I do not think it is possible, I think the result of an extended franchise would be that you would have men Plerted as representatives of the community who would I do not think the men not be really representatives to whom you gave the extension of the franchise would be able to exercise their powers sufficiently intelligently I am and sufficiently properly for some time to come. afraid that is the ense, so therefore I think the repre- Butation would fall into the hands of that class for whom it was not intended, and you would not benefit those for whom it was intended.
1616. That class being what The class which I have just mentioned, the large Indian working popula tion resident in Mauritius.
1017. Now you say the representation would fall into the hands of a class?—That is judging by ex- perience. The franchise was extended in the case of lections to the Municipality of Port Louis, with the result that the representation is entirely in the hands of the Creole class
1618. And it in the Creole class into whose hands you think it would fall? Yes, I think it would full into the hands of the man who did not represent the
· person whom you wished him to represent.
1619. And do you think that Creole class is already sufficiently represented ?--Thoroughly.
1620. Then the class you would like to see repro- rented is the native class?—Yes.
1621. But you think that as they do not speak either French or English, that it would be practically imp xible P—On the occasion of a vacancy occurring quite recently among the nominated members of the Connell it fell to my lot to seek to fill that vacancy, and I Bonght anxiously and carefully for a representative of that class. Not only did I fail to find any representa tive, but those whom I consulted amongst the better class of Indian residents were unable to produce a man to represent 1622. They could not name a
with that themselves -A deputation came to me object in view, and I said, Yea, certainly, I shall be only too happy to meet your wishes. Will you suggest individuals to me? and they could not name one.
น.ต.
Continued
1623 They could not nominate a man of their own class to represent themselves?—They did not
1624 As far as you are aware, is there anybody in the faland able to represent them have never been able to find one yet He would go to the Council unable to take part in the debates
1625. Would he understand what was s—H
There is a local anght. There was a case in point
aard, I think at Rose Hill, where there was a vacancy. and where the nomination of that vacaney fell to my predecessor, Sir Charles Bruce, and be placed on that Board a well deserving and excellent member of the There was considerable opposition Indian community.
me.
to it, but that has died down, and I believe he does excellent work, but his name was never suggested to In fact, I hinted if that individual's name could be put forward, it would be considered, and it was not put forward, so that, therefore, his own people did not suggest him, nor do I think they would. I may as well He is con mention the man. He is named Atchia.
nected with the electric light supplied to this place. and he is a most worthy individual.
1626 Just one other question with reference to If he understood all that was passing, would that not he be able to vote, even though he could not spek-Yes, but I wish it to be understood that it would be a very difficult thing for the Governor to select a man who would not be a persona grata to the people whose views he had to represent.
1627. What would you suggest, then, as being a better Constitution than the one which you have I think,
if you are going to make a change in the Constitution, it must be for some years to come, though I do not think it will of necessity be for all time, it should be in the direction of making the Council of Govern- ment or the Legislative Assembly less of a representa. I am afraid so. I say tive body than it is at present. that greatly against my own principles; greatly against my own inclinations, because I think that representa tion is the proper thing if it can be carried out, but I think under present circumstances and after experience of the working of the present Constitution, that that would be the only way if it is necessary to make a change in the Constitution at all. 1 regret to say so.
1628. Are you in favour of any change -1 am not in favour of any change, provided we do not find our selves, or the Colony does not find itself, continuing in I think that is the position in which it is at present. due to circumstances which are not to be laid entirely to the charge of the Constitution.
1629. Do you think that the form of Constitution has had anything to do-having regard to what you have told us already-with the position in which the meet its Colony is placed to-day, that it cannot expenses I do to this extent, that I think the Legis. lature is largely responsible for a considerable amount of the incrense.
1630. That is what I understand you to say Yes, in the expenditure which has taken place during the last 20 years; I am afraid so.
1631. (Mr. Woodcock.) You do not suggest, when you say that, that the elected representatives are responsible. In other words, do you suggest that at any time in the last few years the elected repre. sentatives have thwarted any Government schemes for the reduction of expenditure, or for economy?— I will not say that they have thwarted them, but I do think that they have resisted them. I think that the natural inclination of the representative member of the Mauritian Assembly is not to reduce. I will not say expenditure, but not to reduce salarial expenditure.
1632. But Government schemes to redúce have not been obstructed, or hindered or stopped ?--I will not say that they have been either obstructed or stopped I will say this, that had there been a stronger Govern- ment majority, perhaps larger economies could have been effected.
1633. (Chairman.) Did not you tell us that in your opinion the elected members have encouraged an expenditure which was not necessary or advisable !--- I did not go quite so far as to use those exact words.
1634. Perhaps not to use my words, but had not it that meaning-Undoubtedly so.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Sir CAVENDISH BOYLE, K.C.M.G.
24 June 1909 ]
1835. I suggested to you the case in reference to In other words, it is very the pensions Certainly plonly put when I say I think the unofficial member of the Assembly would prefer to see money spent which would benefit a Mauritian rather than to see it savel, provided he can give any good reason, or any reson which would satisfy himself.
1636, I will ask you a very simple question, and that is, if you are of opinion that the establishments in Mauritius are unduly large-that there are a larger umber of people employed than are necessary; a larger number than are employed under similar circum. stances in other Colonies, how would you account for it if it was not that the Constitution of the Colony differs from that in other places where they are more economical, and yet where they have larger means?- I can only account for it by this fact-I will put it in very plain language indeed. As a matter of fact the Administrator of the Government, or the Administra- tion of the Island, is perpetually being solicited to find employment for this, that or the other native of the Colony, and those solicitations are invariably made to them either by an elective or unofficial member of the Council.
1637. Do you think it would be to the advantage of the Colony if the Constitution which obtained during the time of Sir John Pope Hennessy was restored?— It would render the task of administration far easier, there is no doubt about that, whether to the permanent. advantage of the Colony, I cannot any. That is the There is no doubt that the whole question of course, work of administration of the Colony by an officer appointed by the Government, subject to the control of the Colonial Office, would be simplified were that so; there is no doubt in my mind as to that.
1638. I will put it in another way. Would it make it easier for the Administration to balance the Expendi- ture with the Revenue ?-If we had two such years as 1907-8 and 1908-9, and were you to restore the Con- before the Pope- stitution to the position it was Hennessy change, I do not think he would be able to balance it at all, whatever sort of Constitution it was; I do not think he could approach it.
1639. That is not quite an answer-I mean that under normal circumstances. as I told you I have experienced both, I found no difficulty with the present Constitution in balancing the estimates and more than establishing an equilibrium between revenue and ex- penditure; during years where circumstances were not abnormal I found no difficulty at all, nor do I think that the expenditure was largely increased during that limited period in consequence of the Constitution being as it is at present.
1640. What I am anxious to get from you is your deliberate opinion as to whether, having regard to the present circumstances of Mauritius and all that you know of the Colony after the years you have spent here, it is advisable to alter the Constitution as it is at the present or not ?--I should not advocate that until every means has been exhausted to restore the financial equilibrium; I should not make any constitutional change at present; I should deprecate that.
1641. In saying that then, do you feel yourself that it would be easier to restore the equilibrium if you had not elective members, for instance P-It would be easier to effect economies of a drastic nature were that It is needless for necessary; that stands to reason. me to enlarge upon that; it would be easier to do that, so that, therefore, if economies of a very drastic nature are rendered necessary after your Inquiry, or if circum- stances appear to render them necessary, it would be far easier to give effect to these economies were the officer then administering the Government to be in a position to command a majority such as he commanded before the Pope-Hennessy Constitution. There is no doubt about that. If any radical changes either in management. administration or financial arrangement are necessary, the officer charged with carrying out those changes would find it far easier to do so were he assisted by a legislative assembly of a different de- scription.
1642. A permanent official majority?—Yes, a per- manent official majority.
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[Continued.
1643. You have in Mauritius two unofficial members of the Executive Council. Is that a system which you find works satisfactorily, and are you in favour of it? .
There -The question was put to me some time ago.
was an opportunity of not appointing those unofficial members and the question was put and the suggestion was made that they should not be appointed. On every new general election there is no necessity under the Letters Patent to appoint any unofficial member. My reply was, that, difficult as I found it to conduct the business of the Legislative Assembly—that is, the Coun cil of Government-now, it would be infinitely more difficult were those two members taken away from the Executive Council; if, on the other hand, His Majesty's Government were prepared to make the change and to formulate a Constitution for the Colony of Mauritius wherein the responsibility was not so divorced from power, then I should say, by all mus there should be no unofficial members of the Executive Council.
1044. Do you find that the fact of having unofficial members of the Executive Council leads to any bad results-It renders the conduct of the business of the Government, in many instances, much more difficult than it would be otherwise; there is no doubt about that. It is not satisfactory under existing conditions. The whole and sole reason why I say that it would be almost impossible to take them away now is that for the majority of the measures which are brought forward it is possible for the Governor to obtain the support of those two members who are members of the Council of Government, and that the consequence is that he is able, after having discussed these matters, to go into the Council of Government knowing pretty well that he will have, at any rate, a certain majority in favour of his measures which he thinks right. Sometimes it happens that he may have been mieled, or, rather, not misled, but he has misunderstood the position, and he will go into the Council of Government believing that he is to have the support of those members, and he does not find it. That has happened on several occasions. Further than that, I am afraid to say that I think the necessary secrecy of the proceedings in the Executive Council is not always observed on occasions -far from it.
1645. Have your remarks special reference to individuala? If the two gentlemen who are now unofficial members of the Executive Council ceased to he members, would you suggest somebody else to take their places ?—Or leave the places vacant.
1646. Would you be quite satisfied with two different members of the community P-I could only go to the elective portion of the Council to fill their places; it would be useless to go any further.
1647. And could you find, out of those elective members, two other members who you think would be as satisfactory, or, I will say, as little unsatisfactory ? -No.
1648. You could not?--I do not think so. would be very difficult.
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1649. Does that not make the system rather difficult! -Very; in every way it is to be deprecated. I have said so, and I mean you to infer that. The only reason is what I have given already.
1650. Still, if it were necessary for you, if you were suddenly faced with a vacancy in one of those places,
would you suggest to the Secretary of State that it was advisable not to fill it, or would you simply name somebody else I should take exactly the same position as I have taken before I should not change it certainly. In order to show how much I deprecate the system altogether. I should leave the vacancy to axist for the number of months that would necessarily be taken in making my representations to the Secretary of State. That has been done before,
1651. But should you recommend somebody else to him P-I should say, "I refer you to my previous "reasons, and to those reasons I have nothing else to add but that the positions be filled." I must maintain that position; I cannot alter that position, much as 1 differ with the principle of the thing, simply because it would be impossible fo carry on the Government.
1658. That you think the system is bad, but you feel the system carries you slong, and, therefore, you
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