MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE
Reference :--
C.O. 882
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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC-
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21 Jun bingo
MAURITIUS ROYAL COMMISSION, 1900
Sir CAVENDISH BOYLE, KOMO
is teevanary to raise a considerable sum of money for the epuponent and putting on a proper footing of our milways, then, of course, it is impossibile tray that the necessary amesut for the servime of such a ban all be raiso】 out of our prevent ordinary revenue. il should say that the suspension or the reduction f the present" military contribution should run cou urrently with the life of such a bun, to be safe
1452 But I imagine that if you raised such a lon for that purpose it would not be paid off in less than. May 20 years I think that would be the shortest period which you could put it at
1453 Then do you mean that you would suspend Le military contribution for 20 years-I think so, or is impossible to say or not , be it, but of course, it
y that the financial position of the Colony may be apprecially improved during that time; were it improved during that time na to justify a reversion the present system. I should be only too happy to wommend it and see it done
1454. That brings us to the question of raising a han at ull Now I must ask you, do you think that a bean for the Government of Mauritius is necessary; if you do, what amount should it be and to what would I think it is essential that a you devote the money? ian should be raised to place the railways on a proper Conting Your question I see addressed generally is
If it were established, as the result of inquiry, that it very desirable to borrow money ia) for improving the railways, (b) for improving the health conditiona of Mauritius un the general lines of Major Ross' My report, (c) for assisting the sugar plantera." answer to that is that I should put (c) first if they will accept it, but I think they will not
*
The planters first if they would accept it. Is it fair to ask you now what amount you would raise altogether, and then for you to tell us how much you would devote to each? 290,000, for the railways, Rs 4,350,009. I eliminate the planters, of course, because 1 do not think it is necessary to consider now that we should raise it. I do not think they will ask for it
1456 You say the planters if they would accept it? Yes, the planters if they would accept it. for this reason, that I think a loan of that description would have a very heneficial effect upon the finances and It would increase the output the revenue generally
of sugar; it would increase the spending power of the community, and it would I think, le a benefit, but I do not think it woull be asked for and I do not think it would be accepted.
1157 Mr. Woodcock.) That, of course, I may say 14 a question for the planters? Yes, but I say it would do good because I think it would increase the spending power of the community. That is the reason why I mention it, and then I think our difficulties in Then the other respects would be very much lessened. there comes the third expenditure, and that is the capital expenditure on sanitary, or anti-malaria works, and that amounts to 42,0001.
1458. (Chairman.). Are you in favour of that P-No. not at present certainly.
1459. Then that amounts to this, that you are in favour of raising a loon of 290,0007, to be devoted to railwaya?-- Junt so.
Is that so! As I (Mr. Woodcock. Forgive me. understand, the witness is in favour of a loan to planters, but he is of opinion, which is a matter which we can eheit in due course, that the plautern would not ask us for it.
1460. (Chairman.) I do not understand that you suggest it should he put to them that if they ask for it they would get it -No, certainly not.
11. Would it be right to introduce the subject ?
1 should say not unless it was pressed for.
1482. (Mr. Woodrock.) As I understand, you say,
in your view, it would be a good thing for Mauritius
if a loan were raised for the planters P-Yen.
1463. You think it would be a good and a necessary thing ?—Yes.
1484 The question whether the planters will get it, or the question whether the Government would go to the plater and ask them to take a loan is quite
Continued
Another story You think it would be a good thing for the country, as I understand it, that money should be raised for the planters It stands to reason that
that i
1465 1 am not arguing the point, but that is your opinion?—Yes
This (Chairman; I understand you to say that you were in favour of granting a loan to planters if they asked for it, because it would put more money anta virculation?—Yes, it would put more money into eureniation, and would merease the output of the industry
147 (Afr Woodcock) It would be a good thing for The Colony-Yes
1468. (Chairman) But, when it comes to a question f asking what sum of money should be raised for the purposes of the Colony, I understand you to say 2900,000/ for railway purposes-Yes, I put that other question aaide altogether, because I do not think the question arises at present.
The
1469. The question of the planter ?—Yes
Of course I do not question may be raised to you. know. I can only gather from the information which I have received, and I can only judge by that, and. julging from that, at the present moment I imagine that they would not ask for it.
1470. (Mr. Woodcock.) But if the planters do want it, you think it would be a good thing for the Colony? -It would be a means of placing cheap money at their disposal, and would increase the output of the industry. and thereby increase the Revenue
1471. (Chairman.) On those two propositions I will take the question of the money for the railways first. because the planters have, at present, made no move. I speak subject to currection, but my recollection is, on the reports that it was suggested to raise 200,0001, for railways, not 290,0001. ?—I think that was Sir David Hunter's report.
1472. Sir David Hunter's report was 200,0007., and, I think, the Consulting Engineers thought that a much less sum would do to begin with P-Then there was a subsequent report of the manager of railways, and that is the one from which these figures are obtained.
1473. You are in favour of the local man's require. ments?--I think he knows what is wanted. It may be a matter for consideration whether it might be reduced, but he has informed me that he cannot do with lene than that sum of money
1474. I think that is M. Pitot - Yes.
1475. Can we have his report?-Yes, I can get it for you now,
1476. I do not think we have seen that report. because I read those reports carefully, and the im pression left on my mind is that the amount was 200,0002. P-I thought it was a little more than that.
1477. That was the amount suggested by Sir David Hunter, and the Consulting Engineers gave a scheme by which you could spend 100,000 and the other 100,0001. later on? Yes, I see that is so.
1478. Because it was divided into so much for permanent way; so much for rolling stock, and then Bo much for strengthening the bridges in order to carry the beavier engines -It was spread over 80 many years.
1479. And it would be some time before the whole of that money was required -No doubt.
1480. But some of it would be required instantly for instance, you would have to get new rulling stock, and you would have to replace the permanent way, and the bridges would have to be strengthened?—I may say that the question of the bridges has caused me very grave anxiety, indeed, so much so, that 1 called for a report when I returned to the Colony, and I got this report, or rather it reproduces certain observations which the general manager made on Tuesday, the 15th December 1908, by which he relieved my mind considerably as to the danger with regard to the main bridges. What he states practically amounts to this, that until the heavy engines are absolutely running, and the heavy rolling stock is absolutely running, the bridges may be regarded as fairly safe.
24 June 1909.]
Sir CAVENDISH BOYLS, I.C. M.G.
1481. That is what I understood from the reports which I have read, but at any rate you will supply us with his report. You say the rum is 290,0007. ?—Yes.
1482. And you are in favour of that sum-He carefully examined, thoroughly imbued with the idea that economy was absolutely necessary, the various figures given in the two reports of Sir David Hunter and the Consulting Engineers, with the result that he position arrived at this conclusion, and I was not in a to question his figures.
1483. That is all as regards the subject of loan that is the total sum that you would propose to raise, and you think it is necessary to raise that as a loan ?— I think that there is a crying necessity for putting the railways on a satisfactory and proper basis. I think that if they are put on a satisfactory and proper basis, the growing decrease in our railway takings will cease, and I think eventually we shall be restored to the previous position in which the railways at any rate paid their working expenses and, to a certain extent, the interest charge and so on on the capital expenditure.
1484. As to this sum of 300,0001., do you think the Colony could raise that without difficulty -Do you mean in the markets?
1485. Yea? On its own security I think it could. 1486. At what rate do you think it would raise it?— 1 calculate it at 4 per cent, and 1 per cent. sinking fund. 1487. When that money had been raised, would the railway as a department, or the whole Colony, be in a position to find the interest and sinking fund in addition to the other charges ?-If my proposal is adopted, certainly.
1488. What proposition is that P-To do away with the military contribution.
1489. You think, if the military contribution were done away with, that all the obligations with regard to the loan could be met P--Certainly, for the services of The loan for that amount at 4 per cent. interest and 1 per cent. sinking fund would amdunt to Rs. 217,500 per annum.
1490. That would be the extent of the obligation over how many years P-The term for 1 per cent. sinking fund is 47 years.
1491. Is that what you would suggest then-a loan for 47 years P-I do not think we should borrow for a less term.
1492. Then do you qualify your suggestion with regard to the military contribution or not P-With regard to the time for which it should be suspended P
1493. Yee -No, because I think by the end of 20 years we should be in a better position, because the Rs. 217,500 is less than half of the Ra. 440,000.
1494. When you speak of suspending the payment do you mean that it should stand as a debt against the Colony ?—No, not at all.
These are M. Pitot's figures (handing same). 1495. That is all you think is necessary at the present time to raise a loan of 300,000., supposing that you could obtain the suspension of the military contribution ?—Yes.
1496. Now if you could not obtain the suspension of the military contribution, suppose you could only get a reduction, do you think that it would still be possible to meet your annual payments by economies ? With a reduction of half I should have enough money
then.
1497. A reduction of half and economies would still enable you to carry on P-Undoubtedly, short of any unforeseen disaster, of course. May I explain how I arrive at that conclusion. Without any further reduc tion of expenditure I look upon the annual normal expenditure at about Rs. 9,700,000. The average of revenue for the three years, 1904–5, 1905-6, 1906–7, It dropped in 1907-8 to Rs. 10,338,000. Rs. 8,722,000, and this current year I have not thought it wise to calculate on more tham Rs. 8,800,000. Now
WBS
taking those five years, and they may be taken as legitimately specimen years--three fairly good ones, or three very good ones, and two extremely bad ones—the average of revenue is Rs. 9,707,000, or just a little over what I look upon as the normal expenditure. If I can #noceed in reducing the expenditure by Rs. 440,000, it in needless to say that if those calculations are anywhere
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[Continued.
near realised, there will be sufficient money to pay our way, including the services of a loan, and I will go even further than that, including any necessary works on an anti-malaria campaign which, after mature considera- tion, may be found to be absolutely necessary, and even with half I shall still have just enough to pay my way, but it is needless to say. I think that it is necessary to find out some increased source of revenue and to find out the means, as far as within our power, to reduce the expenditure in order to be perfectly safe, and in order to do what I think we are certainly bound to do. to build up a reserve fund against future contingencies. 1498. I imagine your feeling with regard to a reserve fund is that the Island is so constituted that Bomething unanticipated may happen, and you must have something to fall back upon Certainly. I have never ceased to advocate and follow that policy since 1 have been here, and at the end of the year 1906-7, that is to say, on the let July 1907, I thought that I was within measurable distance of having realised my object, namely, of establishing a reserve fund, for we had Re. 1,300,000 which had been saved during the three previous years, and which took the place of a deficit in November 1904 of about Rs. 1,130,000. The absolute deficit, the shortage, in November 1904 was Rs. 1,117,627. The absolute surplus on the 1st July 1907 was Rs. 1,327,304. Then came a condition of circumstances affairs absolutely unforeseen, and entirely, I think, beyond human control, which have resulted in the wiping away of that surplus of Rs. 1,327,000 during those two years, and piling up a deficit of Rs. 653,000, so I think it is most essential that we should have a reserve fund which cannot be touched, except under abnormal circumstances and with the permission of the Secretary of State.
1499. I only put it to you to get your opinion. It was stated to us by a witness yesterday that he was against any taxation or other means which could be employed to make a revenus large enough to leave a surplus, because he said that a surplus invariably invited extravagance P—I think there is a good deal in what he says if that surplus is floating, about in the Treasury, but if it is properly invested and put aside, earmarked as an insurance against certain events, it would be a good thing.
1500. And not to be expended for making up deficits ---Not to be expended for making up deficits. That has been the fault for many years past. A good year's proceeds, instead of freeh taxation being insisted upon, has gone to make up the deficit of a bad year.
1501. That you think is a bad plan ?-Absolutely. 1502. I see that at present, or at any rate in 1907-8, the obligations of the Colony for payment of public debt, winking fund and interest, were almost one and a quarter million rupees ?—A good deal of that in capital expenditure-that must be borne in mind; repayment of capital. It is not for the service of the debt solely; what I call the service of the debt being interest and sinking fund. The system adopted here with regard to loans which the Colony has not utilised. the capital of which has not been expended on Colonial works, but has been used for aiding and assisting planters and others, is that there should be a certaiì system of what they call annuities, that is annual repayments, and the whole is lamped together in the onlculations; the repayments go into revenue, and the revenue is charged with the repayments in the reduction
of the loan.
1503. Could you say what the obligations are which you speak of simply for interest and sinking fund P Is not it in the estimates!
It
1504. It is here. It is the figure which I read. is at the bottom of the first column, page 1, Mauritius Estimates, 1909-10 P-I should have to correct that, because, if that in so, that is absolutely service—I am afraid it is so, and that I was mistaken in the figures.
1505. That is the figure that I read out?That is so then.
1506. Then that being so, if this money were raised, your annual obligations would be about one and
■ half million rupees -That is so.
1807. Would not you consider that was rather a large sum against a revenue of Rs. 9,700,000—it is n