PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE
Reference :-
6
TTIL C.O. 882
سلئ.
7
ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC-
COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO
PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON
Mr.
B. Craig. 30 Dec. 1902.
Hr. F. Shaw.
13 Jan. 1903.
42
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE:
required for Siam; and I suppose they go from Singa change of standard in the Straits Settlements want it pore mostly.
1523. But he would be at a disadvantage; he would not be able to take the Straits dollar ?-He would take the Straits dollar because he would be able to sell it in Hong Kong for a British dollar and 10 or 15 cents.
1524. But would he 7-He would very soon find out that a Straits dollar was worth more than a Hong Kong
dollar.
1525. But outside the Straits Settlements the dollar would only be worth its weight in silver 1—Wherever there are banks they will take it at a slight discount, just as they do foreign money all over Europe.
1526. (Chairman.) If you went to a money-changer in this country to change rupees, I have no doubt he would give you 1s. 4d. for them or thereabouts 1- Less the cost of freight and his commission.
1527. Have you anything else you would like to add t -I should like to add very much that I do not care much about the value of the dollar, but I would like to see a fixed stable currency in Singapore and Penang, because otherwise it is impossible to work business satisfactorily.
1528. Do you find that these fluctuations and the fall have seriously affected your business 7-They do affect it; they stop business; they make it more of a gamble than it is, and it is bad enough in all conscience. 1529. (Mr. Blain.) On that point we have been told here that the people who are anxious for this
done at once; they want to get on to a gold standard without any delay at all. The higher you fix the exchange value of the new dollar, I presume, the longer would be the interval before they could get on to an effective gold standard; but you do not share that view that it is necessary to precipitate the change If you precipitate the change I think you would cause considerable inconvenience, and probably a great deal of loss to people. If you choose to fix the dollar at two shillings and put it up at once, I think you would have a regular panic in the bazaars.
1330. But if you put it at some intermediate point you might make it effective much more rapidly 1-- Well, I would rather go for the two shillings, and take a long time over it.
1531. I suppose the worst evils that you complain of would be put an end to by merely cutting off your dependence on silver without getting to a relation to gold, when once you make your new dollar and limit the supply of it 7-Well, we should know then where we were, that exchange was not going down to one shilling or sixpence, as it might possibly do now.
1532. You would be cut off then from the direct connection with the fluctuations in the silver metal f -Yes.
1533. (Chairman.) Have you any objection to your memorandum being published with your evidence ?- None at all.
SEVENTH DAY.
Tuesday, 13th January, 1903.
PRESENT:
Sir DAVID BARBOUR, K.C.&.I., K.C.M.G. (Chairman), presiding.
Mr. W. ADAMSON, C.M.O. Mr. G. W. JOHNSON.
Mr. W. BLAIN.
Mr. A. E. COLLINS, Secretary.
Mr. F. SHAW, called; and Examined. 1534. (Chairman.) You have resided in the East, Mr. Shaw 1-Yes.
1535. And you have been engaged in business there? -I have been engaged planting most of the time.
1636. What parts have you resided in -In Province Wellesley-that is, in the Straits, Sumatra and Borneo. 1637. Were you long in Province Wellesley ?—I was 14 years there.
1538. At what time was that 1-From the beginning of 1862 to the end of 1875.
1539. And what was your business when you were in Province Wellesley 1-Sugar planting.
1540. And after that were you in Sumatra ?—Yes. 1641. At Deli-Yes, at Deli-Langkat, rather, would be absolutely correct; it is the same thing.
1542 That is Dutch Sumatra ?-Dutch Sumatra. 1543. And what was your business while you were there -Tobacco planting.
1544. And were you long there I was there till 1892.
1545. And have you been in Borneo ?—Yes.
1546. Did you roside there long -Four years. 1647. That is British Borneo 1-Yes.
1548. And while you were in Province Wellesley there was no great fuctuation in the relative value of gold and silver-No, when I went there first the dollar was at 4a. 6d. ; that was the normal figure.
1540. What was it when you left-When I left there it was, as far as I can recollect, in 1875, about 41
1550. Was 4. 6d. an unusually high rate for it? Oh, no, it was always taken at that at that time.
1551. It was always taken at 4s. 6d. 7-It was when I went out there first.
1552. Did the alteration from 4s. 6d. to 4. have any material effect upon your business —No, I do not thing 10 had.
1553. As sugar planter?-As sugar planter at that time.
1554. And where did you sell the sugar 7-It was partly shipped home, and partly sold locally. That is, sold -for Burmah and China.
1555. Sold to countries with a silver standard 7-Yes. 1556. But, as regards the sugar that you sent home; did you find it made any difference -Oh, decidedly, it made a difference; of course, a lower exchange at that time was rather favourable to us.
1657. Was favourable to you ?—Yes.
1558. But did you got the me price in the gold standard countries as before, or was there any tendency towards a fall in price 1-There was a fall in price.
1559. Did the fall in exchange counteract that to some extent?-To some extent, but it is such a long time ago I rather forget the figures now.
1560. After that you resided in Deli 7-Yes.
1661. From what time to what time From no beginning of 1876 till 1892.
1662. And during that time there was a large fall in the value of silver as compared with gold 1-Yes, thera was a considerable fall then.
1563. A large fall ?--Yes.
1564. What was the standard of value, the lega standard af value in Deli --The legal standard; well, the legal tender there is the guilder.
1565. That is the Dutch guilder 1-That is the Dutch guilder.
43
COMMITTEE ON STRAITS SETTLEMENTS CURRENCY.
1597. They have 7-Yes. 1598. In Mexican dollars ?—Yes, very much indeed. 1599. Where do your coolies come from?-Chin- mostly; Java and a fow Madras coolies.
1566. Which is based on gold 7-Yes.
1567. So that, practically, the legal standard was gold? --Yes, that is in Deli with the Dutch Government, but the coin in circulation in the country is the dollar.
1568. The Mexican dollar-The Mexican dollar. 1569. Was the guilder in circulation at all? Well, you could get a few, but very few.
1570. Very few 1-You could get a few from the bank; the bank has a branch there.
1571. How did a man manage when he had to make payments to Government of revenue, and he received his money in Mexican dollars It was taken at a cer tain rate of exchange.
*
1572. Did the Dutch Government take the Merican dollars at a certain rate of exchange?—Yes, at that time they did.
1573. Did they alter the rate of exchange from time to time -Oh, yes.
1574. Do they still take it -Well, I believe now they insist upon having guilders.
1576. Do you know how people manage now who have payments to make to the Dutch Government 1- They have to go and pay dollars into the banks and get guilders.
1576. There are banks that will give them guilders ? Oh, yes, the Chartered Bank has a branch there.
find 1577. While you were residing at Deli, did you that the value of silver made any difference in your business?-Decidedly.
1578. In what way?—And still more since I left there. 1579. In what way did it make a difference -Well, more especially since; we have got to buy our supplies, such as rice and opium, from gold countries; there is a very considerable loss every month.
1580. What countries did you buy from Rangoon and Siam.
1581. Well, but up to 1893-7-Not so particularly then, but since then.
1582. I wish to know how the fall affected your busi ness up to 18921-Up to that time it was favourable.
1583. It was favourable ?-Because they were still on the silver basis.
1584. Where did you sell your tobacco -In Holland. 1584*. And the exchange was favourable to you on Holland 7-Yes.
1585. Did you find the price of tobacco go down at all between 1876 and 1892 No.
1586. It did not fall?-Well, of course, it went up and down.
1587. It went up and down, but there was not a decided fall-No, I do not think so, excepting the two years, 1890 and 1891 crop, when there was a slump in tobacco; then it went down very low; it has never been so low.
1588. It want down after 1892, did it ?—No, it went
up.
1589. And it up still-Well, it varies very much, you know; it depends a great deal upon the quality you can produce. It is an article that is a sort of fancy article that you can never depend upon how it is going to take the market.
1590. Was there any alteration in wages between 1876 and 18927-No, I think not, no; it stood about the
same.
1591. I mean wages measured in Mexican dollars?— No, I think it stood about the same about that time.
1592. Were there any wages paid in guilders at that time?—No.
1593. There were note?—No.
1594. Has there been a rise in wages since 1892 in Deli-Well, there has been an indirect rise.
1595. In what way?—That is, that we have got to supply our coolies with rice at a certain rate and opium
at a certain rate, and these prices will not pay the shop- keepers on the estate; and, therefore, the estate his to make that good.
1506. Have the prices of rice and opium risent-Ob, decidedly the dollar price.
6049
1600. Now what proportion of the expenditure of the wages of a coolies was given to him in cash, and what in rice and opium and other things?-Well, he supplies himself, you know; you can scarcely tell what propor- tion of his wages he spends on these things.
1601. I thought you supplied him with rice and opium ? Oh, no, the shops supply him with rice, and we say to the shopkeepers, "You must supply it at a certain rate."
1602. Oh, I see 1-Of course, the shopkeeper makes a loss on rice, and we must make it good.
1603. And the same with opium? And the same way with opium.
1604. Can you give any estimate of what the propor tion was?-No; I do not think I could really.
1605. The shopkeeper supplies the coolies on the whole estate, I suppose?—Yes.
1606. And whatever loss he suffered you made good! -We had to make good on rice and opium.
1607. And that loss tended to increase 1-Yes, de- cidedly. You must understand we do not pay them wages exactly, they are paid by results.
1608. By the amount of work they do?-That is, that they plant a certain area with tobacco; we buy it from them, but during the time that the tobacco is growing we have got to make them advances for living.
1609. I see?—At the end of the season their accounts are all made up, and the man is called up and the whole thing shown to him, and he is either in debit or in credit.
1610. So that you cannot say whether there was any alteration in wages or not?-Well, in that way we were paying very much more wages.
1611. Well, you were paying more, but you rather paid a contractor than paid wages-the contractor who supplies you with tobacco? He sells his tobacco to you; you do not pay him so much a month, and get him to grow tobacco which is your tobacco 1-No.
1612. You cannot tell what his wages are ?-You can not tell till the end of the season.
1613. You can tell what his profit is; what he is going to receive1-We can tell what he has earned during the year.
1614. What he has earned, quite so?—Yes.
1616. But he is not a man hired at so much a month? -Oh, no, there are some of them.
1616. Take the wages of those men who are hired at so much a month; have they risen?-Yes, they have.
1617. Then you were also engaged in business in North Borneo ?-Yee.
1618. And you are still chairman of a company, I think? No.
1619. But you have been?-In North Borneo? 1620. In Borneo --Well, I was for a short time chair- man of a small steamboat company, that was all.
1621. Are you a director?-Yes.
1622. That in it; you are a director of a tobacco com- pany in North Borneo-Of Sumatra company.
1623. Also in North Borneo ?-No.
1624. But you are acquainted with business in North Borneo tobacco business 7-Yes.
1625. Has the course of events been very much the same in North Borneo as in Deli -Very much the same; they are worked on similar lines.
1626. And as what we may call the popular our- rency in Deli was the Mexican dollar, the case would have been exactly the same as in North Borneo 1——Yes, the same as North Borneo.
1627. Do you think it would we injurious or the reverse if a gold standard were established in those countries-I think it would be decidedly advan- tageous.
1628. Advantageous!—I think so.
1629. In what way?-Because we know where wo stand then. For instance, our managers or assistants coming home on half-pay find themselves very badly off.
7%
Mr. F. Shaw,
18 Jan. 1903.