PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE
Reference :-
LLEICO. 882
7 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON
ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC-
COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO
Mr. B'. G. Gulland.
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MINUTES OF EVIDENCE:
silver then. I think they would prefer a coin of their.
OWD.
125. You think they would prefer a coin of their own?
13 Nov. 1902. That is my answer to that.
126. Now, supposing it were decided to have a gold standard with a 2. dollar, how would you propose to introduce it?That is the trouble. I should propose to introduce it by virtually a stroke of the pen, if it were possible to do do.
127. What is that particular stroke of the pen that you would make ?-You would have simply to give people the right of paying, I think, in the new currency at its equivalent value to the old.
128. I do not understand exactly-Well, you see, sir, in this matter we want guidance from you; wa do not know how to go about it. In India, when you made the change you were virtually at the par you alid on to, were you not?
129. No, we were not; we were considerably below it?-Were you?
130. Yes 7--Very well, then, how did you do it? 131. In India the circumstances were different; we had not got Mexican dollars and British dollars; we had got our own rupees, and we stopped coining them, and, in the course of some years after, the rupes fell to ls. Ofd., and after a further period it rose to 1s. 4d.; and that is all that was done; but you cannot follow that course, because you have got Mexican dollars and British dollars?--I do not soe how we can well adopt the Indian system of change.
132. You cannot do it as long as you have Mexicans, because you cannot limit their supply?—I do not think it would be impossible to limit the supply within the colony.
133. But how could you limit the supply of the Mari- can dollars; the Mexican Government coins them 7- You could stop the importation of them into Singapore and you could stop the importation of the British dollar into Singapore.
134. Do you think you could ?—I think they could. 135. Would they not be imported in the native Vessels P-I think they would to a small extent.
136. To a very large extent?-Everything is possible, it is done in the case of opium now.
137. Would you not require a very large Customs establishment?-The police would do it.
136. How would you do it? A Chinaman arrives with 100 dollars in his bag; how would you stop him-search every man as he came in They might have to search every man sa he came in.
139. That is the difficulty?—I do not want to throw any alight on the Singapore police, and say they could not do it, but I should doubt it.
140. It would be very difficult to do?-It would be very costly.
141. Especially in the Malay States? Therefore, I think we will have to do it by an Act in the Legislative Council.
142. Yes; but what sort of an Act in the Legislative Council 7-Well, I take it, that where a man had contracted a debt before the drop he should repay in the new currency, but perhaps it would be rather hard to make a man who borrowed money when it was at 18. 7d. and 18. 8d. ropay in 25,
143. I do not quite see how you could manage that. Suppose I borrowed 100 dollars and owed 100 dollars, what would I have to do?-Well, when did you borrow it?
144. I borrowed it a couple of years ago 1-Very well, you would repay it in the new coin, because you borrowed when exchange was over 28., and there would be no hardship in making you repay it in the new coin st 2.
145. How would I get the new coin-You would have to go to the Government or a bank and buy it.
146. And buy it at the higher price-And buy it at the higher price. You see we want some guidance from you on this matter. We had a discussion at the Tanjong Pagar Dock Committee yesterday on the sub- ject.
Our debentures and shares merely state dollars" so much, and I asked: "Now, gentlemen, if we go on a new currency, what are we going to do?" "Oh," they said, "it does not affect us at all; our
certificates merely say dollars, and it will be the new dollar, of course."
147. Now, suppose your dock company had borrowed 1,000,000 dollars-Very well.
148. And they had to pay it back; borrowed 1,000,000 dollars a couple of years ago and had to pay them back now; would you like to have to pay back 1,200,000 dollars No, we would not. We borrowed it when it was 28., and we are quite willing to pay it back in any 2s. coin that may be made current.
149. That means that your receipts up to date are in the ordinary dollars?—Are in the ordinary dollars.
150. You would have to pay back 1,200,000 of them? -No, we would not pay them back in these dollars, we would pay them back in the new dollar.
151. How would you get the new dollar?-By that time our customers would be paying us in the new tokens.
152. Even if they were paying you in the new tokens, somebody would have had to pay extra in the first instance ?-We would not take anything but the new dollars when the Legislative Council said it was the currency of the country.
153. A man having 100 dollars to pay somebody would, the first time, have to go and pay 120 dollars to get that 100 dollars?-He would have to go to the Government for them, and I suppose he will have to hand in gold to get them.
154. How is he to get the gold; he will have to buy the gold at a higher rate?-No doubt he will have to get it through the banks somehow or another.
155. But it means somehow or other that somebody will have to go in the first instance and buy 100 of the new dollars by paying 120 of the old ones?—Yes, certainly I take it that the Government would open an account with the Bank of England here, and take payment in London. The dollars we now had have all been bought originally with gold.
156. Now, suppose the Government were to pass a law of that sort, and say that in future nobody is to be allowed to accept the Mexican dollars, everybody must pay the new dollars; would not that introduce great confusion and trouble?—I do not think it would.
157. Nobody would have the new dollars; everybody would have to go and get them 7-They would have to go and get them; but you may make any rule you like, in Singapore Mexican dollars will still go very largely.
168. Will still circulate very largely P-Will still go very largely. The Chinamen will all pay their servants in Mexican dollars, and it will be a very long time before the coolies will find out anything about the new cur- rency. The Chinese coolies will be in the unhappy position that when they go to buy anything from the small shops they will be asked to pay in the new dollar, and they will be paid themselves in the old; by degrees they will find out, and things will adjust them- selves in that way.
159. You read, I suppose, the report of the sub-com- mittee of the Chamber of Commerce of Singapore 7— Yea.
160. Putting forward plan under which they thought it would be possible to establish a gold stan- dard ?—Yes.
161. Do you recollect that their plan was to have a large number of one dollar notes, suddenly to call in the silver dollars, and give one dollar notes, and to use them as currency for a time, and then to offer to convert them into gold at a certain rate, say, 28.?— (Mr. Adamson.) 65 or 70; they proposed to give a new coin, which was to have a weight of only 65 or 70 per cent, of the old one.
162. (Chairman.) Yes; what do you think of that proposal -I never saw how it would work. 163. You do not think it would work ?-No.
164. What was the difficulty ?--Because I do not see how they would maintain the ratio, the value of the coin.
165. The way they would maintain the value would be by promising to give 2s, for each dollar?-But who was to give that?
166. The Government were to give that?-But they did not say so.
167. Oh, I think so?--They did not say so; if they
COMMITTEE ON STRAITS SETTLEMENTS CURRENCY.
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182. Is there a large quantity of the subsidiary Mr. W. coinage outside the Straits Settlements and British G. Gulland. Malaya -I believe a very large amount.
13 Nov. 1902.
had said so we would have known where they were, but I never saw that they proposed that the Government was to pay 28. I propose that the Government should pay 2s.. for dollars returned; that is the only way I mee out of the difficulty. If they had said that I would have been with them.
168. What would you say to this plan: To coin a Straits Settlements dollar, a special dollar for the Straits Settlements, of the same weight and fineness as the Mexican dollar, but only coined by the Straits Govern- ment, and gradually to substitute that for the Mexican dollar in the Straits Settlements P-Instead of doing the thing at once, to do it gradually.
169. To do that, get your own silver dollar to begin with; then you would get into the position that India was in; when you had got a sufficient number of these dollars, you would cease to add to their number, and their value would then probably gradually rise to 28 F And what would be at the back of these dollars then? 170. Ultimately there would be gold at the back of them. To begin with, there would be nothing at tho back of them except that their number would be limited ?
And where would we get them, sir ?
171. When you wanted them you would have to go and give 2. to the Government, who would give you a dollar. To begin with the Government would supply them?—I do not see that there would be any advantage in that; they have to be paid for like any dollar. We have got the Mexican now, and the Mexican and the British dollar will come there as bullion, and will be used as bullion, and we want something at once that will put us upon a sure footing.
172. You want to do it at once. Well, Rome was not built in a day; it takes a little time. The advan- tage would be this, that you cannot make the Mexican dollar convertible into gold, because, if you offer 2s. for it you would be offered all the Mexican dollars in the world 7-Yes.
a limited 173. But if you only had your own dollar, number of dollars, you could offer to do it, because you would only have a certain limited amount of gold to pay away -We would virtually do it in one day all the same, because we must all alter our style of business in one day.
174. I do not think they ever altered their style of business in India They wrote rupees in their accounts and paid in rupees all along. They never made the faintest alteration anywhere. Nobody ever know that any change had taken place. That is the objection to making sudden change, that you would have to alter your style of business. However, you think the beat plan will be--I will not say that. This is a new view altogether. I have always thought that it was not possible; I have had it preached to me. 175. That there was no possibility -To adopt any scheme of that sort; that Singapore was not in a posi tion to go in for a contracted currency.
176. To have a gold standard at all?-No, to put out these dollars of a nominal value of 28.
177. But the dollar that the Straits Settlements would put out in what I suggested would be a dollar exactly the same weight and fineness as the Mexican dollar, and at first it would only be worth 18. 8d.
(Mr. Adamson.) I think Mr. Galland does not un. derstand, Sir David, that you propose to make that a
token coin.
(Chairman.) Ultimately.
178. (Mr. Adamson.) A token coin. The relation to gold would then be the relation that the half-crown has to gold in England; you would limit that supply! -Well, you have to think of this: They have got a very large subsidiary coinage. The Government do What are you not know what they have got now. going to do with that?
179. (Chairman.) That would remain precisely as it is? Would not that come in, and people come in and ask you for one dollar for two dollars.
180. In what way demand one dollar for two dollara? -One dollar for two half-dollars, or one dollar for four 25 cent pieces.
181. Yes, and he might be given the one dollar; why not do it? It would be all right?—I think you would find there would be an immense quantity come up from Malaya; all round the whole of the Archipelago these subsidiary coins have gone.
183. You think there is 7-I think there is; in fact, the Government tell you in the Blue Book they do not know what is out.
184. They know what has bean coined, do they not? -I do not think they do.
185. (Mr. Adamson.) They know what is coined ?-- I think they will tell you they cannot tell; seemingly by the Blue Book it cannot be estimated.
186. What is out, but the amount coined they have got the exact amount of, because they have to pay for it in England ?-This is a matter which requires attention.
187. I understand Sir David Barbour's proposition to be this, that we have a gold currency, and we have a token currency, and that token currency would be kept rigidly to a point-I hope I am not making a mistake in which there would be no excess 7-Then what would become of the 9,000,000 notes issued by the Government?
(Mr. Adamson.) He is working gradually to that; that is a difficult thing.
(Chairman.) There would be no difficulty at all. (Mr. Adamson.) The proposal is to establish, as I understand, a gold currency in Singapore, with the silver currency of token money.
(Chairman.) A gold standard.
188-9. (Mr. Adamson.) Yes. Now, if you want any thing outside that you must deal with dollars s bullion; other dollars you must deal with as bullion? -Then, what amount of dollars would you begin with, air}
190. (Chairman.) I do not know that I have anything more to ask you on the question of the method of in- troducing gold standard? Then the Government notes?
191. What did we do with the Government notes in India? We did nothing 7-You did nothing.
192. We did nothing; the thing just went on by itself? And by degrees you would put a gold back behind these.
183. By degrees we got a gold backing behind these notes? It would be done by making the currency soarce,
194. By not increasing it-You cannot do busi- ness then to advantage.
195. You cannot raise the value of any dollar with- out limiting its numbers. You may say what you like, but the only way you can raise its value is by re- ducing the quantity -But why should we not bring in the sovereign at once?
196. If you bring in the sovereign at once, you will reduce the currency just as much -I should pay of the old currency at the reduction. We do not want Wa to do anything that will hamper our business. want to have as much coin in the place as we can get-
197. You do not want more than you require?—I am not sure of that. We want as much coin as we can get. Of course, we do not want more of this new coinage than we require gold; but we do not want to go upon any restricted system if we can avoid it
understand it, 108. Your plan, then, is this, 85_ that you would simply tell everybody to pay in some new coin Yex.
199. Which would be worth 2. 1--Which would be worth 20.
200. What would your coin be; would it be a gold coin or a silver coin 1-Of necessity, it must be to some extent a silver coin, or notes. You see it would be the sovereign really, but we must have & smaller coin as well, and I should cut off all the present subsidiary coinage and start with a fresh subsidiary coinage. I do not see what else we can do.
201. It certainly would be difficulty; if there is a large amount of subsidiary coinage circulating out- side the Straits Settlements and Malaya, it would be a very great difficulty, because it would come back --It would certainly come back.
202. But if there is not much circulating outside the Straits Settlements and Malaya, then there would be no difficulty 1-I think you will find there in large amount outside.