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Mr. S. Gilfillan,
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COLONIAL CURRENCY COMMITTEE:
silver prica is very considerably higher ?—Yes, to the great advantage of the Malay Straits, and that was 12 July 1897. how far a continuance of the fall in silver would be brought to my mind by the question being asked as to regarded unfavourably by the natives. They do not complain of the fall in silver; they have no reason to complain, though they may suffer in compensation now by a higher price having to be paid for opium and rice...
M. J. II. flugther.
19 July 1892.
537. The great argument on the other side is that he gets no more silver than of old; that is not borne out by your figures ?—The same thing occurs, in different degrees of course, in other products, but it cannot be brought out so clearly as with tin. Take pepper. I liave no doubt that, to a certain extent, mutatis mutandis, it is the same there.
538. You say that the producer would get more silver; you say that more silver would have to be paid for opium and rice; would the people who paid that Jugher price be those who get the extra silver for tiu or different people ?-Hardly the same, but to a certain extent it would be.
539. You may have that compensation in looking at the matter from the point of view of receivers aud buyers, such as yourselves, in the Straits Settlements, and yet the effect of having to pay higher silver prices for oplum and rice might not, to those who have to pay them, be compensated for at all ?-In so far as opium is consumed.
540. And it is largely consumed ?—The payment for opium affects every worker who uses it and who has not, I think, received much higher wages.
541. The opium coming from India; if the Mexican dollar goes down and the rupee is stealy, it will then be a higher price ?—A much higher price.
342. Do you think that would cause excitement and trouble ?—I think it would cause great dissatis- f'action.
543. That, I suppose, would be met by a change of Singapore currency such as has been suggested ? If a change of that kind could be carried out success- fully, no doubt it would.
544. (Mr. Fairfield.) Has not opium fallen very much? It has fallen.
545. (Lord Farrer.) & witness here said that servants wages have risen much in Singapore during the last twenty years. I think it was Singapore ?--Y doubt that.
540. (Mr. Meade.) Servants' wages ?-Oh, servants. European footmen, cooks, and servants. We have mostly Chinese and Malay servants.
547. He went further ?-Our labourers and coolies do not get much more they do get more, but not much; I do not think that plantation wages have risen much. I think that that statement has a very small basis on fact.
548. (Sir R. Welby.) It was made to us by a gentleman who had been there ?-When I went out there after an absence of twelve years, now twelve years ago, I found that I had to pay more for a servant than before, but at that time the question of silver was in abeyance; it did not arise from silver, but from an increase of population. We do not pay our coolies much more; we do not pay cashiers or Portuguese clerks any more, so I think that it would be a little exaggeration to say that there has been a great general rise in wages.
549. (Mr. Meade.) Have the wages of Portuguese clerks not risen? How long have their wages been the same ?-I think there is very little difference from thirty years ago; I do not think there is mach difference. You could get a good deal of service from a Portuguese clerk for 100 dollars a month.
550. In the case of tin you showed that you were able to sell tin at much the same price as thirteen years ago, though silver prices in Singapore had risen; has that in any way arisen from a diminution on the inter- mediate charges, such as freight, in the meantime ?-- Not to a great extent. There is a diminution, but not much; there is greater competition.
551. If there is a greater price for tin, would that permente to all classes; does the Chinaman in the tin mines get more?-Yes, and more employed.
men are
652. (Mr. Fairfield.) Is not the Chinaman in the mines a partner rather than a wage-earner ?—He is generally both; after working a certain time for he master he often works for himself as a principal,
The witness withdrew,
Adjourned till Wednesday next, at 11 a.m.
At the Colonial Office, Downing Street, S.W.
THIRD DAY.
Wednesday, 19th July 1893.
PRESENT:
THE RIGHT HON. LORD HERSCHELL, THE LORD HIGH CHANCELLOR, G.C.B., ChaIRMAN. LORD FARRER.
The Right Hon. Leonard Henry Courtney, Sir REGINALD EARLE WELBY, G.C.B.
M.P.
Mr. BERTRAM WODEHOUSE CURRIE. The Hon. Robert Henry MEADE, C.B. Mr. EDWARD FAIRFIELD, C.M.G.
Mr. GEORGE W. Joanson, Secretary.
Mr. John Howard Gwyther," called in and examined. 553. (Chairman.) You are the manager of the Cluartered Bank of India, Australia and China ?—I amanaging director now, I have resigned the management.
564. You have had considerable experience in regard to exchange operations in relation to China and the Straits Settlements P-Yes.
555. We should be glad of your opinion as to the practicability of making a change as regards Hong
Kong and the Straits Settlements which would secure fixity of exchange in relation to gold ?—Do you mean the mechanical process ?
556. Yea?-Not as regards the advantages or dis- advantages.
557. It was suggested to us that you were not desirous of expressing any opinion on the advantages or disadvantages, but that you were willing to give us the benefit of your experience as regards the practic-
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
ability and modus operandi?—I do not know what you have heard as regards the schemes of the mer- chants, which if I may my so are somewhat crude, as they have not had experience sufficient to form correct One conclusions as regards the modus operandi. section of them seems to have some idea that a British dollar could be coined which in some mysterious way would be based upon gold, but I have pointed out that unless they can persaade England to accept that dollar if it came back to this country on a certain fixed basis in exchange for gold, those ideas are quite futile. 558. One suggestion made to us was that there should be a double rupee coined ?-That is a mere mechanical process which does not affect the main question.
559. Bat the suggestion was that that double rupee should be legal tender in India as two rupees, and the idea was that by thus linking it with the Indian coin- age you corld get a parity of exchange for gold with the rupee?—I do not see any difficulty as regards the Straits linking itself with India, it could be done by a certain process, namely, that the Straits Government should borrow from India a sufficient quantity of rupees or double rupees which they would offer to all comers up to a certain bour of a certain day in ex- change for Mexican dollars and Japanese yen, which, as you know, are the currency of the Straits. These dollars would be sent to India for conversion into
rupees.
500. The people in the Straits, therefore, would require to have rupees given to them in exchange for those dollars on a fixed basis?—The exact parity is 227, but it would be near enough to say 225 for the 100 dollars. After that date all Mexican dollars and yen would be no longer legal tender, but would be simply merchandise, and, of course, as regards the question who is to bear the expense of melting down the dollars sent to India to repay the Indian Govern- ment for the rupees lent to the Straits Government, that in a matter for arrangement between India and the Straits Settlements.
561. Do vou form any approximate idea about the number of Mexican dollars that would be likely to come for exchange under such circumstances? -No, a guess at figures is very dangerous, I have not the slightest iden. I suppose it has been mentioned to you by those who are better able to tell you than I am, that Singapore owes all its prospority to its being a depot, a distributing centre, and when the question is discussed amongst mer- chants to the practicability and advisability of chauging the standard and linking themselves with India, they must bear in mind the fact that they would still require the Mexican dollar very largely for their dealings with the adjacent islands, at any rate for some years to come, because the Easterns, as you know, are very stubborn to change, especially as regards coinage. The merchants, therefore, would have to deal with Mexican dollars in this way: after they had settled their exchange, we will say on London, they would require to go to those who held dollars as merchandise and buy them to send to the out- lying districts; therefore, though they would have a comparative fixity of exchange as regards all their capital in Singapore, they would still find themselves otherwise exposed to great variations by reason of having to buy, day by day, Mexican dollars with which to purchase produce outside the colony.
562. That is to say, that would be a complexity introduced, which does not exist at
the present time ?—Yes,
663. Do you think that it would be likely to create considerable embarrassment in trade or not ?— That is more for the merchants themselves to consider, it is their business, not mine. As a banker I do not care one way or the other. We have had no fixed capital in the East for the last ten years in consequence of our disbelief in silver. Of course, as far as regards the natives, I can see one dificulty which might arise. Many of these dollare are stored in the interior of the Native States, (which are now practically annexed to
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Singapore,) and on the adjacent islands, and it might for a time give rise to a great amount of perturbation in their minds when they found on going to Sings pore, after the date for taking the dollars in exchmuge for rupees had expired, that their dollars were no longer of the same value as they had been accustomed
to.
564. (Mr. Currie.) Well, but they have seen a great depreciation already, have they not, of these dollara ?--- No, because, as evidence has brought out in India as well in the Straits, the Mexican dollar as regards the daily wants of the people has not depreciated, that is to say, you can buy with the Mexican dollar for your daily wants as much now as you could 20 years ago. Of course I refer to what the country itself supplies. I may add that we have not found it necessary to increase the salaries of our officers abroad through all this decline in silver, which we most assuredly would have done if we had found that the cost of living was to them greater than it used to be.
665. Have you made no allowance to them ?-Not at all.
566. The evidence before the Commission was that allowances had been made?-Our salaries are the same as in 1861.
667, (Mr. Meade.) Do you not give special privileges to your officers--those of them who are sufficiently highly placed to have expenses in England ? -No, we have not done so.
568. (Chairman) To return to the Straits -I was going to say that that difficulty would be rather a great one as regards all those outlying districts, it might create some disturbance in the minds of the natives, who might think themselves in some way fleeced, but that is more a political than an economic question.
569. Of course it would be a serious question if the trade, Singapore being a depôt such as you havo described, was to be seriously hampered as regards the Eastern races to whom they distribute ?--It would assuredly be for a time, but if the merchants are disposed to face that difficulty, I do not see that it is for me to my that they are wrong.
570. There is, as we have heard, a very marked difference of opinion amongst them ?-Yes, there always is in such cases.
571. (Mr. Currie.) May I ask, do you think it would be possible to make the rupee a legal tender in the Straits Settlements without the measures which you spoke of, such as exchange of Mexican dollars for rupees?--You could not well demonetize the money of the place without giving the people an opportunity of exchanging up to a certain time what you would substitute for it.
572. Would there not be a great danger if you did that that dollars would be attracted from all the East for this exchange ?—I quite acknowledge that danger, but of course you must take the pros, and cons, in any action of that kind.
673. What economic objection do you see to this, that after due notice the Governaient of the Straits Settlements should declare that rupees would hence- forth be the legal tender of the country, and that its accounts should be kept in that currency, not at all excluding Mexican dollars, which would continue to circulate as merchandise. What objection is there to that ?—The mere fact of silver being demonetized still further by excluding the dollar from being a legal tender would at onco diminish ita valuo, and if you did so without giving those who held the dollar the opportunity of having it exchanged for the new legal tender of the country I think the people would! justly consider that their property had been partially con-
fiscated,
574. We are assuming, I think, that it is necessary to do something. You are good enough to say that if something in to be done we could do it ?The only feasible plan that I have worked out in my mind is what I have described.
575. Could you at all estimate the quantity of dollars which the Straits Settlements might have to exchange into this new rupee or double rupee?—No,
0 3
Mr. J. H. Gwyther. 19 July 1893.