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needs to realize before one could properly react to the problem. Of course, if you have rats crawling around, firstly, you have to consider how to work out their numbers. There are formulae basing on the number of rats caught, basing on the number of rats poisoned and also basing on the number of rats seen running around. Of course, if there are rats crawling around and biting old people, the dangerous situation increases. If they start biting babies, then it is again more dangerous. If they start biting young healthy Councillors like Mr. LI, then it becomes even more dangerous. So these are all the reality. These figures are standard figures. They are well known although they are rodent jargons and rodent statistics. But I assure Members that these data are quite fair, just and acceptable.
CHAIRMAN (in English): On the practicable side, maybe I, as past Chairman of the Public Health Select Committee, would also like to supplement the answer. Rat poison alone is not the only method to eradicate the rat problems. There are two essential factors for rats to flourish: One is harbourage, a place for rats to live in. Secondly, the availability of food for rats to feed on. These are the two essential factors. To kill rats, we can also use other methods apart from rat poisons namely the mechanical method. So if our city is designed in such a way in the building that there are low deck space for the rats to live in and if our citizens do not throw around food residues, there will be no food for rats to feed on, then the rat population will disappear. So I think rat poison alone is not the only factor for controlling the rat population.
MR. JOSEPH CHAN YEUK-SUT (in Cantonese): Mr. Chairman, apart from keeping our city clean in order to prevent the spread of rats, is our Pest Control Section catching rats in a positive manner? What are the figures of catching rats per year or per month? Could we ask for co-operation from members of the public to help us? Let's say we pay them $10 per rat caught as a sort of bonus or award. In early years, that was done. If the problem deteriorates, perhaps this is one way of going about it. Secondly, in relation to rat poison, I understand rats' reproductive powers are very strong and they have already adapted themselves to our poisons. As the Chairman said a moment ago, we have 6.5 million people, perhaps we have 6.5 million rats. We can control the population by birth control. Can we also control rats in the same way? In other words, prevent them from reproducing more rats. So if they become sterile, then eventually we will be able to eliminate the rats. Have we got such chemicals?
PROFESSOR LEUNG PING-CHUNG (in Cantonese): We have some useful statistics in the past year. In relation to rodents, the number of complaints is 2,666. The number of trapped rats is 11,926 and the number of rats poisoned is 44,363. Of course, it represents a small percentage of the millions of rats that we do have. I can fully understand what Mr. CHAN is suggesting that we should be more merciless. But as for birth control, perhaps I have to discuss with Mr. CHAN. Perhaps he knows more about it than I do and we need to talk about it.
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CHAIRMAN (in English): So you two will work out the answer.
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MR. RONNIE WONG MAN-CHIU (in Cantonese): Mr. Paul Young concentrated his question on old tenement buildings. But actually now in newer private buildings or estates, they are also infested with rats. As Mr. Stephen LAU has said that the Government did stipulate in law that developers had to include RCPs in their layout plans. It was also stipulated that refuse collection chambers had to be included in new buildings. But according to the information gathered, these new facilities have made things even worse than before. Is it an appropriate time now for us to review new legislative requirements? Perhaps the Public Health Select Committee should take it up. There are some points that the Public Health Select Committee can consider. For instance, the developers should first compress the refuse before handing it over to our refuse collection vehicles. So I wonder if that can be done.
PROFESSOR LEUNG PING-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Yes, I am sure that can be taken into consideration. As for new flats, the Pest Control Section is targeting itself at black spots particularly in response to complaints. As for new black spots, perhaps they have not really been aware of those. Rat infestation of course is more serious in old areas. In Kwai Shing Circuit, in the 1970's, some body was bitten. Now it happens again in the Kwai Chung and Tsuen Wan Districts. These are in fact black spots which need closer attention.
MR. WONG SIU-YEE (in Cantonese): I have a question. Professor LEUNG, in paragraph 4 of the reply says refuse is removed by special refuse collection team before normal street sweeping service starts at around 7 o'clock. I wonder if this is really true. Because very often even at 8 a.m. to 9 a.m., even up to 10 a.m. we can still see refuse around. Has Professor LEUNG got any figures to substantiate his remarks?
PROFESSOR LEUNG PING-CHUNG (in Cantonese): In fact, a lot of members of the public and also Members of this Council have seen refuse around beyond 7 a.m. But as I have explained earlier, we do have 11,000 litter containers which is a rather large number. We do have people dumping refuse indiscriminately. It is an effective way of dealing the problem if we can remove the refuse more quickly in the early hours of the morning. But unfortunately the Department has failed to clear any overflow deposits at all 11,000 litter containers or to step up the frequency of clearing the refuse deposited around litter containers. Perhaps Mr. WONG's points or suggestion could be referred to the Department so that they can do a better job. As I have told Members before, we are at the moment targeting ourselves against the black spots.
MR. WONG SHUI-LAI (in Cantonese): I have two follow-up questions. First, the Department trapped 11,000 rats and poisoned 44,000 rats. If the disposal methods of the rats are not appropriate, it might lead to another hygiene problem as well. So could we be informed on how the Department will deal with the rats, both living
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