Page 7 of 126
12
HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
the officers who had to run away from the squatters in those days. I don't want to see this phenomenon happen because of the change of policy. Whilst I cannot agree to his motion, I would agree to Mr. K. K. FUNG's suggestion that this matter be referred back to the Markets and Street Traders Select Committee for detailed consideration. From what I can see, today we can probably vote against the motion because this is not at all an effective way to deal with the problem. It is true that some market stallholders would trade as illegal hawkers outside the markets. It is better to find ways of tackling the problem rather than to come up with an unrealistic proposal to change our policies.
MR. LAM CHAK-PIU (in Cantonese): Mr. Chairman, since I am not standing for election, what I say today is fairer. I feel that the motion is contrary to a lot of what we have been doing and I am not in favour of referring it back to the Markets and Street Traders Select Committee too. These are issues that we have discussed time and again and the Working Party to Review Hawker & Related Policies has also spent a lot of time on discussing this. There is a confusion between unlicensed hawkers and itinerant hawkers in the motion. In fact, the GD Teams will persuade itinerant hawkers first before they are arrested. According to Mr. BERNACCHI that the GD Teams can only disperse hawkers, we don't exactly know what we are trying to do. Are we trying to disperse the unlicensed hawkers away or the itinerant hawkers away or the stallholders away? If we don't do anything except to disperse them, stallholders will come back and hawk outside the market again. If we do not arrest them, dispersal only cannot serve as a deterrent effect. I think this is not a constructive motion to improve the situation anyway. I do agree with Mr. FUNG that there are a lot of contradictions in the motion particularly the last sentence where we do not really know what is the purpose. What I am saying now has nothing to do with the 5th May.
MR. PETER C. K. CHAN (in English): Mr. Chairman, as expressed by some Members, I formally move under Standing Order 15(C) to ask this question be referred to the Markets and Street Traders Select Committee for further discussion. Standing Order 15(C) states that reference of any matter before the Council to a committee.
CHAIRMAN (in English): Have you got a seconder? Dr. Tu, are you seconding it?
DR. THE HON. ELSIE TU (in English): Mr. Chairman, the motion proposed by Mr. BERNACCHI does sound fine. It sounds very fine to say we should disperse the hawkers. I don't know how — whether you say 'Go away, naughty boys' or whether you go out with batons and beat them away'. But I think it is not possible to carry this out and that is why I am going to support the other motion. Most of the hawkers referred to must be illegal hawkers, because we don't have too many itinerant ones who haven't got pitches. So, they must be illegal and the only thing they are afraid of is getting arrested and having their goods confiscated. Once this deterrent is removed, they just come back and they won't take any notice of the GD Teams. So the GD Teams would in the end still have to arrest them. Therefore, the matter would be back to square one. I think the only way to deal with them is by considering whether we can possibly get enough personnel to patrol in the areas of markets. In that case, we need to go back to the Markets and Street Traders Select Committee in order to discuss what methods we can use to have the market streets patrolled to try to keep these hawkers away, and we can't accept the one proposed by Mr. BERNACCHI. So I second Mr. Peter CHAN's motion.
CHAIRMAN (in English): A new motion has been proposed and seconded. SUC, the motion is:
SUC (in English): Mr. Chairman, 'in accordance with Standing Order 15(C), this matter be referred to the Markets and Street Traders Committee'.
MR. CHAN TAK-CHOR (in Cantonese): Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I support Mr. Peter CHAN's motion. Even though I am against Mr. BERNACCHI's motion, he has mentioned the problem of hawker control. Too much time has been spent by the GD Teams in the police station in prosecution. This also happens in my constituency. I think that the Markets and Street Traders Select Committee should work together with the police to see how the procedure of prosecution can be simplified. At the same time, can we consider imposing fixed penalty for licensed hawkers because this will be able to reduce the workload of the GD Teams.
MR. FREDERICK K. K. FUNG (in Cantonese): Mr. Chairman, a number of Councillors have expressed that they support my motion, but I have made it clear that I do not agree to put it back to the Markets and Street Traders Select Committee. I think we should really study what is the best way of hawker control. However, if we refer this motion back to the Markets and Street Traders Select Committee, what we have to discuss is whether we should arrest hawkers or not instead of discussing what is the more effective way of hawker control. So, I am not in favour of referring this motion back to the Select Committee for discussion, but I agree to discuss the question of better way of hawker control in the Markets and Street Traders Select Committee.
MR. B. A. BERNACCHI (in English): Mr. Chairman, I would try not to answer generally because we are speaking on the motion, which will be referred back to the Select Committee. The thing is that the hawkers have not been properly controlled because we have not the money to support sufficient GD Teams. Therefore, if as is apparent from Councillors' speeches, they want further consideration to be given not only to my motion, but to the best way of controlling the hawkers with limited means that we have on the ground, then, I have no objection myself to referring it to the Markets and Street Traders Select Committee.
Page 7 of 126
13
HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
Page 7 of 126