286
HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
done, and therefore, I do agree that something should be done now on estimating scientifically what is required. The point which I do not agree with Mr. SULKE is the method of the investigation. I do not feel too happy to go on spending more money because we may already have information or we may get information which will save us $3 million. At yesterday's Kwun Tong District Board committee meeting, we discovered that one district board member had already carried out a very careful survey in Kwun Tong along with about 100, I think it was volunteers, and they had worked out quite a lot of the problems as mentioned by Mr. SULKE. I think if we let all the district boards do their own investigations and give us their surveys, they would know a great deal more about their districts than we can know, or even the university can know. Therefore, I will be very glad to suggest that the district boards should be brought into investigations, and they should give us the information upon which we can base our conclusions. I would suggest either to invite them to join the working party or at least to submit their reports to the working party. Since we are given the choice of two motions, I am afraid I have to abstain on the first and go in favour of the second.
(Mr. Edmund CHOW left at this point—5.20 p.m.)
DR. HUANG (in Cantonese):---Mr. Chairman, many Members mentioned about the second motion, but up till now, we know that we have only one motion to propose, so Mr. Chairman, could you give Mr. SHUM a chance to propose his second motion. (laughter)
MR. SULKE (in English):-Mr. Chairman, I think we could start a hawker stall here selling all the red herrings that have been cast so freely at me. (laughter) First of all, Mr. YOUNG's statement that I want to tie the hands of the Markets and Street Traders Select Committee, nothing was further from my mind. I think the Markets and Street Traders Select Committee is doing a fantastic job under very difficult circumstances. I am trying to help them and I think everybody here seems to say 'yes, SULKE is alright, his heart is in the right place, but he is spending money.' There is a famous old story about the ha'penny worth of tar which spoiled the ship and it finally sank. I mean that $300,000, which may or may not be able to save this Council million. You can't really find out, and this is the main point I am making. The members of the Markets and Street Traders Select Committee and the department are extremely busy and this happens to all of us whether it's in this kind of work or in business and we fail to see the wood for the trees because we are so busy. We need somebody outside. Now, I am perfectly happy to say, let us pass the motion with the amendment 'that the methodology is to be decided by the Markets and Street Traders Select Committee' and if the Secretary would like to word that, I would be very happy to listen to what he has to say. I don't want to get ourselves into a legal tangle on this. It has been suggested by Mr. FUNG that the motion could be split into two, therefore, if we could have the motion amended in such a way, that we are committed to have the enquiry, but that the Markets and Street Traders Select Committee will decide how to have the enquiry. As long as it is clearly understood that the enquiry is an independent enquiry, independent of the Committee and the department. Can you do that, Mr. Secretary?
HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
Page 161 of 194
287
Traders Select Committee will decide how to have the enquiry. As long as it is clearly understood that the enquiry is an independent enquiry, independent of the Committee and the department. Can you do that, Mr. Secretary?
(Mr. Howard YOUNG arrived again at this point—5.25 p.m.)
CHAIRMAN (in English):-I exercise the Chairman's discretion and ask Mr. FUNG if he would like to exercise his right of reply as to what are suggested by Mr. SULKE. I would like to ask Mr. FUNG if you are interested, and amend the original motion.
MR. SULKE (in English): If I may, just very quickly, we just add to the motion that the methodology of the enquiry is to be decided by the Markets and Street Traders Select Committee'.
CHAIRMAN (in English):-There is another suggestion which you may consider, Mr. SULKE, under Standing Order 21(3), you could withdraw the motion with the consent of the seconder and with the unanimous consent of all Members present at the meeting.
MR. SULKE (in English):---No, I do not want to withdraw the motion. I would add, perhaps somebody could second this.
CHAIRMAN (in English): -I think unless someone is willing to move an amendment and with a seconder, then we have to move on the motion. I don't think you can amend your motion, Mr. SULKE.
DR. HUANG (in Cantonese):-Mr. Chairman, I support the suggestion by Mr. SULKE. I have served in the Urban Council for over 16 years and we always have a committee looking after hawkers and those who served on this committee always tried their best to solve the hawker problems. But up till now, problems have aggravated. Just look at the hawkers proliferating in front of theatres, when I leave my Yau Ma Tei Ward Office, I have to walk right into the street because the pavement is full of hawkers, and that many members of the public are forced to walk on the street because there is no space on the pavement left for them. So in the foreseeable future, I do not see how we can really tackle this problem. In the past, I have mentioned about hawkers trading in front of theatres, especially in Tsim Sha Tsui district and I was told that this is within the jurisdiction of the Police Force. However, I saw the Police walking in front of the hawkers without taking any action. So it is really the attitude in dealing with hawkers that matter. We try to solve the problem, but I want to remind Members that we have over tens of thousands of hawkers who don't have to pay taxes while factory workers who earn over $3,000 a month have to pay taxes. Hawkers in Singapore are required to pay taxes, so should we not conduct a survey on this? Government needs taxes to survive, but if tens of thousands of
Page 161 of 1