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problems of obstruction to pedestrian and traffic flow, environmental pollution and health hazards created by on-street hawking activities. The amount of additional street space which could be taken up by hawkers was very limited and it was necessary to seek a gradual reduction in the number of hawkers. The rationale behind this policy decision is equally---if not more---valid today than it was a decade ago, having regard to the increase in population and the social and economical development of the territory over the years, particularly the increase in traffic congestion and public expectations of a better quality environment. While general public opinion still accepts the existence of street traders as a fact of life and as a convenient service, there has been a hardening of attitudes and the Council is frequently adjured to tighten control over the number and activities in the overall public interest. This is clearly reflected in District Board discussions.
Let there be no misunderstanding about what the Urban Council aims to do. Our long-term objective is to seek a gradual reduction in street traders by resiting as many into markets as practicable and, at the same time, to confine street trading to specified areas where its presence will not be detrimental to the local environment and where traffic and pedestrian movement would not be impeded. Indeed, in long-established hawker concentrations, as and when circumstances permit, it is the aim of the Council to give unlicensed hawkers an opportunity to operate within the law by 're-ordering' them in hawker permitted places and issuing fixed pitch licences to them. Since the inception of the re-ordering scheme in 1980, over 6,000 formerly illegal hawkers and licensed itinerant hawkers have been so converted to fixed pitch status. However, because of the shortage of suitable sites and subsequent enforcement commitments, implementation of the on-street re-ordering programme will, of necessity, be a time-consuming process which can only be done progressively with the full co-operation of the District Boards and Government departments concerned.
Departmental surveys indicate that the number of hawkers operating illegally was 17,500 in June 1983. This is a substantial reduction from the 30,000 plus total illegally trading when the general issue of hawker licences was first stopped. It is true that compared with 16,300 as estimated a year previously, there has been a slight increase. I must, however, refute the suggestion that the increase in illegal hawkers has anything to do with the amount of licence fees they have to pay. Notwithstanding regular increases in licence fees imposed in recent years in an attempt to reduce Council's subsidy towards hawker management, the majority of fixed pitch hawkers pay less than $100 per month in respect of their licences and pitches. This certainly cannot be considered to be excessive. There is no evidence whatsoever to support the allegation that licensed hawkers are turning to illegal hawking because of their unwillingness or inability to pay licence fees. Members will undoubtedly realize, too, that the alternative to regular revision of hawker licence fees is for the Council to increase its already high level of subsidy towards hawker management, at the expense of its contribution to other activities.
While there have been years...
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, developed a viable and realistic policy in the light of practical experience. Progress has to be slow, but the objective of the policy is being achieved.
MR. SULKE (in English): Mr. Chairman, I would like to thank Mr. SHUM for an exhaustive and very thoughtful reply, but I would like to ask how do we know that the increase in illegal hawkers is not due to the amount of the licence fees the legal hawkers have to pay, and why not decrease our subsidy to the hawkers by making all hawkers legal and charging them the licence fees?
MR. SHUM (in Cantonese): Mr. Chairman, for the first question, not many of the licensed hawkers are willing to surrender their licences and this tells us that they can afford the licence fees. The second point on asking the illegal hawkers to pay us, I think we can consider that too, but before considering that we should think about our responsibility of providing them with fixed pitches which is difficult because we do not have suitable sites in the urban areas. As I have just said, over 6,000 licences have been issued since the inception of the re-ordering scheme, in other words, we have discovered over 6,000 fixed pitches in the urban areas there. The Urban Council is finding ways to resite the unlicensed hawkers. However, it is not easy to find suitable sites in the urban areas and the Urban Council is not solely responsible for that. We have to get the co-operation of other Government departments. Now we have the District Boards, if they have any suggestions, of course, we are willing to consider them.
MR. LAU (in Cantonese): Mr. Chairman, on the confiscation of goods owned by unlicensed hawkers, have we achieved the target?
MR. SHUM (in Cantonese): Mr. Chairman, on this particular point about the confiscation of goods owned by unlicensed hawkers, I think this is one of the pressures to be faced by these hawkers and I think it is effective.
MR. BERNACCHI (in English): I would like to ask Mr. SHUM whether or not he has done an investigation on the amount spent on hawker control or hawker operations directed to the illegal hawkers as opposed to hawker control of legal hawkers when he says that we are subsidizing hawkers for, in effect, a tremendous amount.
MR. SHUM (in Cantonese): Mr. Chairman, if I have not misunderstood Mr. BERNACCHI's question, I think he was asking me whether we should step up the control of unlicensed hawkers instead of having more control over licensed hawkers.
CHAIRMAN (in English): Would you like to repeat the supplementary, Mr. BERNACCHI?
MR. BERNACCHI (in English): I am questioning whether or not we are in fact subsidizing the hawkers by a tremendous amount when you consider that the
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