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licence fees, the hawkers are enjoying unfair competition against other traders. An obvious example is that the cooked food stalls in Urban Council Markets are required to pay rents of about $2,000 to over $6,000 each per month but an on-street cooked food stall is only charged about $4,000 per annum.
If we do not indicate clearly to the public that we will adjust the hawker licence fees annually so as to control the extent of unfair competition, which otherwise will further deteriorate, there will be more and more illegal on-street hawkers. I think that the Council should pay particular attention to this problem; otherwise I support the motion.
MR. HOWARD H. W. YOUNG (in English):-Mr. Chairman, the intention is to reduce the subsidy from 65% to 60%. That, in itself, is along the lines with the Statement of Aims for the Council regarding hawkers. On the other hand, I would like to point out that in dollars and cents terms, the subsidy is not really being reduced. It is in fact being increased from $34.2 million to $36.2 million. That, of course, is in dollars and cents terms only. I would say that apart from having to subsidize hawkers, which is mainly in the management of legal and illegal hawkers, if one takes into account the enormous cost of cleaning up hawker areas after they have closed down for business for the day, I am sure the public's subsidy would be even greater than this figure so mentioned. One only has to stroll along shortly after or before midnight in areas such as Tung Choi Street, Temple Street and the Macau Ferry Pier to see the mess that is left behind which our workers are there cleaning up, I think that in the long term it is correct to say that we wish to reduce the public subsidy and hawkers. At the same time, we must not lose sight of the fact that there are many illegal hawkers who are also enjoying unfair advantage, not only over shopkeepers but legal hawkers as well. One of the examples is in Tung Choi Street. In fact, there are people having hawker stalls approximately 10 times the size of the advocated fixed pitch that we are proposing for people with licences and they pay no money at all to the Urban Council, so I not only support this motion but also hope that the Urban Council will press ahead with the reordering exercise to gradually bring in these unlicensed hawkers and have them under control with fixed pitches, so that at least they can pay a share of their revenue to the public which has been long overdue. With these remarks, Mr. Chairman, I support the motion.
MR. CHAN CHI-KWAN (in English):-Mr. Chairman, I support the motion because I think the adjustment of fees is reasonable and it does not put on a burden beyond the ability of those various types of hawkers. I do not like the word 'subsidy' because if we find that the expenditure over income is 60% it is not subsidizing any section. It is a process of using the rate wisely to accommodate the need of the society. Hawkers do provide a service in this community, particularly to those not so well to do. They want to buy from the hawkers. They supply fresh and cheap commodity
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to the society who need their service and this is a society of affluence, but there are people who are not so affluent. That is why we tax the more affluent so that the less affluent would get some service out of the tax of the more affluent. So I do not feel that using the figures how many percent, how many dollars and cents is right. For calculation, I do not mind, I have no objection. I don't even mind that there will be annual adjustment. As some of my friend said, 'you know, cooked food stalls, they make a lot of money and they are planning to buy their second and third property.' Yes, an increase to some of those who are still clinging on to their tradesman's licence, earning a very earnest living, and probably find it difficult to continue surviving without public assistance and I think a heavy increase on them would not be correct. I would say that you know, I do not like the word of subsidizing in the percentage, but I support the motion because I have scrutinized it. I have discussed it in various select committee meetings and I support it because it is fair.
CHAIRMAN (in English):-We must take your word for it: that cooked food stalls make a lot of money (Laughter). Does any other member wish to take the floor? Then does the Chairman of the Select Committee, pro-poser of the motion, wish to exercise his right of reply.
MR. SHUM (in Cantonese):-Mr. Chairman, the purpose of this motion is mainly because we feel that we have financial difficulty within the Council, so we hope that the hawkers would share the load of responsibility and pay increased fees. As far as the increases are concerned, we think that such increases could be afforded by the hawkers. The figures that we have pointed out are for the control of hawkers, especially because we are employ-ing a large number of staff in the General Duties Teams. If the hawkers could be more orderly or if we could construct more markets so that the hawkers could be moved into them, then of course, the expenditure for management control would come down because we would need less staff then. So I think the figure comes from the control of hawkers. I have heard a lot of Councillors speaking today and in principle they do not object to this increase in fees, so I hope that in future if there should be financial difficulty within the Council every year, then we should continue con-sidering the problems of hawker licence fees.
The question was put.
The motion was carried unanimously.
3. MR. SHUM CHOI-SANG, CHAIRMAN OF THE MARKETS AND STREET TRADERS SELECT COMMITTEE, moved the following motion:
'RESOLVED that the Hawker (Permitted Area) (Amendment) (No. 2) Declaration 1980 be made under By-law (4)(1) of the Hawker By-laws.'
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