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opposed the motion, that I have been on the Hawkers Select Committee for that my proposals have always been stone-walled by the same members who many years without solving the problem, I can only remind those members stand up and criticise me. The Urban Council has never been willing to push for a practical plan for hawkers, but has always dealt with them piecemeal, introducing expensive control measures which have invariably failed. The solution lies in overall planning by assessing the needs of each district and pushing hard for the necessary space for licensed traders. Any solution must also include stringent action against triad control of hawking sites. I cannot support any continuation of this negative policy of making licensed hawkers pay for the ineffective control of the unlicensed. I therefore oppose the motion
CHAIRMAN (in English):-Any other member? Mr. BERNACCHI, Mr. Augustine CHUNG, Dr. Denny HUANG in that order.
MR. BERNACCHI (in English): Mr. Chairman, the fact that hawker licence fees is needed to be increased is obvious to everyone, but Mrs. ELLIOTT has raised a problem that is very dear to my heart also: when are we going to get the so-called unlimited hawking in H.P.A.s into a licensed condition. I do oppose the licensed hawkers having to pay for the unlicensed hawkers as I do oppose the general public in their rates having to pay for the unlicensed hawkers, and I think that Mrs. ELLIOTT is right in saying that first things come first and we must solve the hawker permitted areas first before we resolve how much it is fair to charge the licensed hawkers. For that reason I myself propose to abstain on this motion.
MR. AUGUSTINE S. K. CHUNG (in English):—Mr. Chairman, I agree that if we ask the licensed hawkers to pay and subsidize the control of unlicensed hawkers, it is certainly unfair. But in the case here, it is not the fact because the question is that we understand that the proportionate ratio of licensed and unlicensed hawkers is about 4 to 1 or 5 to 1? So the question here, the increase of the licence fee, will only form about 16% of the subsidy of the total control because here total management control expenditure for the current financial year is about $45.4 million while the revenue from the licensed hawkers is $10.5 million. Now the increase only gives an additional revenue of $5.7 million which forms a deficit of about 70%, so it does not even come to the total proportion which the licensed hawkers should bear for themselves. So the unfair part of it is the taxpayers who have to subsidize the control of the unlicensed hawkers so I think the question of increase is one issue and the other one asking the taxpayers to subsidize the unlicensed hawkers is another issue. So far as the increase is concerned, I agree there is a fair proportion but certainly I would urge the Council to consider taking measure to make it possible for us to have other sources of income from the unlicensed hawkers to pay for themselves and subsidize themselves and not the taxpayers to subsidize them, for instance, one point is that at the moment the unlicensed hawkers' payment of fines goes not to the Council but to the general revenue. I consider that that should belong to the Council because the
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Council do the control and the Central Government receive the payment. I think the Council should urge for that part of the money to go to the Council. the second thing is that we should try to formulate a system whereby we can receive money from the unlicensed hawkers so that eventually that the control of unlicensed hawkers will be self-contained and self-subsidized or sufficient. Thank you.
(Mr. Chan Chi-kwan left during Mr. Augustine Chung's address.)
CHAIRMAN (in English):-Dr. Denny HUANG, Mr. Howard YOUNG.
DR. DENNY M. H. HUANG (in Cantonese):-Mr. Chairman, I do not doubt the sincerity of the Chairman of the Street Traders Select Committee and also the desire of Council Members to solve this problem. I do not think the increase of fees is a very large problem. It is only a matter of principle that I object to. The number of licensed hawkers and unlicensed hawkers have remained almost steady since the past 12 years. In other words, it reflects that the Council is not effectively controlling hawkers. This means that licensed hawkers who pay for the licence, do not get sufficient protection from the licence fees they are paying and in our Standing Committee of the Whole Council when we were discussing this question, I mentioned that if the hawkers could not get an assurance from this Council that, with the increase of licence fee, we would more effectively be able to control these hawkers, then I would object to this motion.
MR. HOWARD H. W. YOUNG (in English):-Mr. Chairman, the next time I rely on the services of a hawker, I will be glad to know that on top of what is being asked as a price, I am only paying another 70% of the hawker's cost to run his business and not more than that through rates.
At the last public meeting, it was proposed that there would be no increase in rates for the next financial year. At this public meeting, it has been suggested that hawkers fees would now be increased. I would certainly agree to choose the former. However, I do agree to the very valid point made by Mrs. ELLIOTT that we ought to seek revenue from the so-called the untapped hawkers who are not paying anything and, in fact, being subsidized 100%, I also agree to the point that the fines should go to the Council ought to be looked into seriously. However, instead of arguing which comes first, the chicken or the egg, I see in this particular situation, there is no reason why we cannot have the chicken and the egg as well. Under those circumstances, Mr. Chairman, I support the motion.
MISS CECILIA L. Y. YEUNG (in Cantonese):--Mr. Chairman, just now I feel that an increase in licence fees would assist the Urban Council to lighten the expenses of the General Duties Teams and I think this is not bad. However, I feel it is unfair to increase the burden of the licensed