Page 79 of 187
126
HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
CHAIRMAN (in English):-Ladies and gentlemen, Mr. BERNACCHI rose on a point of order about certain parts of Dr. Denny HUANG's speech. My understanding of the speech is, and I'll put it to Mr. BERNACCHI, that Dr. Denny HUANG was trying to prove, if the motion were passed, it would involve perhaps more open meetings and more attendance on the part of Members and he cited how difficult it was for Members to do so. He also pointed out Mr. BERNACCHI'S own attendance record. The second part was in refutation of Mr. BERNACCHI'S allegation that the Elected Members were divided among themselves, and Dr. Denny HUANG made his reply on that point. Now, Mr. BERNACCHI, you have heard Dr. Denny HUANG, do you still think that in fact he was speaking in breach of Standing Orders?
MR. B. A. BERNACCHI (in English):-Yes, I do.
CHAIRMAN (in English):-Yes? Then, I would like to have this matter referred to the Standing Orders and Procedure Select Committee to consider whether those parts were in breach of standing orders or in refutation of the remarks previously made by the mover of the motion. I think this would be the best way of dealing with this matter; then the Standing Orders and Procedure Select Committee could consider this matter in more detail. Thank you.
MR. TSIN SAI-NIN (in Cantonese):-Just now I heard the most experienced Councillor commenting on Mr. BERNACCHI's motion. This is the first time I hear that, in the Urban Council, in open meeting, discuss our own problems. It relates to the problems of Elected Councillors and Appointed Councillors, and also discusses the jurisdiction of Select Committee and Standing Committee and the nature of the open meetings. It also discusses the overall democratic proceedings of the Council. Because I have only received the English version of the motion, and it is up to day that I received the Chinese translation of it. As said by Dr. HUANG, and possibly because my poor knowledge of English, I do not see the subtlety of the motion in English, but I got the Chinese translation of the motion and I realize this motion's contents. If the motion in Chinese translation is different from the English version, I believe what I speak refers to Chinese translation. About the first point, about Delegated Members and Elected Members, certainly they hold different views because Elected Members, as a tradition, hope that in the open meeting, show their responsibility to society and gain more votes. This point is necessary, but when we pursue this action, we must realize the Urban Council its nature and its pursuit and whether its pursuit is reasonable or whether its pursuit is only a publicity of personal views, having no regard to practical things.
HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
127
If the Urban Council have a lot of these open debates, the Urban Council would become an urban assembly, it would become a more democratic organization and would be quite unlikely to preserve our present set-up, and I know before I arrive in this Council, the Urban Council is already limited its discussion and debate to the jurisdiction of the Urban Council, a lot of things cannot be discussed here in public. At the same time, about the jurisdiction of the Council, Standing Committee, jurisdiction, according to this book, is defined. However, the passing of this book was done by the last council. If we think that there is no need for the Standing Committee and if its work is improper, then I do not know why Members actually passed and accepted the jurisdiction of the Standing Committee. Another point I sympathize with Mr. BERNACCHI as an Elected Member wishes to discuss in public, but sympathy is not enough. I think open meetings are held regularly. I think we have more opportunities to discuss more matters as not using it as a means to publicize oneself. Also he raised Section 36(4) of the Ordinance, but he did not mention two points which have to be discussed in public. One is on contracts and deeds and also, the next one is about amending the Standing Orders. I agree with these, but this does not mean that we should not delegate the Standing Committee with sufficient powers.
Lastly, I feel the Urban Council's jurisdiction and discussion in public have a lot of point to be further considered. As a democratic organization in embryonic stage, we must sincerely and cooly consider this point or amend it and we should not try, in an open meeting to show ourselves in a 2-hour discussion. I therefore only sympathize with Mr. BERNACCHI's views as an Elected Member, but I cannot support his motion. I feel, from now on, because the composition of the Standing Committees are ourselves and no others, subjects can be discussed in open meetings or it can be discussed in Standing Committee and which is the proper forum to discuss matters, we must decide ourselves. Otherwise, Mr. Chairman, we will be asked to hold meetings once every week, daily or even every night. I do not think I can support this motion unless it has been substantially amended to suit our needs and are not being used as a vehicle for publicizing ourselves.
MRS. E. ELLIOTT (in English):-I rise to support Mr. BERNACCHI'S motion. When the original motion was passed on the 14th August, 1973, it was not obvious that this resolution would be used, as it is being used, to exclude from public discussions motions which, although of public interests, do not meet with the approval of what has now become, in effect, a Government appointed majority in this Council. Mr. BERNACCHI has mentioned one motion involving finance which met with
Page 79 of 187
...
...
Page 79 of 187