HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
other compartment reserved for the opposite sex, is to take into account the present-day social conditions wherein children appear to be more precocious at an earlier age than in the past and it would therefore seem to be appropriate to set a lower age than 12 for this particular By-law. In recognition of this, the Public Swimming Pools (New Territories) Regulations already prescribe 8 years instead of 12 years in the equivalent provision. The deletion of the word "authorized" from “authorized attendants" where it appears in By-laws 4(i)(j), 6, 12 and 13(3) is to bring these by-laws in line with similar provisions in the Public Swimming Pools (New Territories) Regulations.
The amendments have received the support of both the Recreation & Amenities Select Committee and the Standing Committee, and I now move that the amendment to By-law 7, and the deletion of the word "authorized" from "authorized attendants" in By-laws 4(i)(j), 6, 12 and 13(3) in the Public Swimming Pools (Amendment) By-laws 1974, be made law.
MR. F. K. Hu (in English):-Mr. Chairman, I have pleasure to second the motion.
MR. B. A. BERNACCHI (in English):-Mr. Chairman, whilst I support this motion in general, I must protest, and I use the motion to do so, against the habit recently so obvious in this Council, of deciding all complicated and contentious matters in the Committee of the Whole rather than in a public meeting, and whilst I cannot, in this meeting, complain about your ruling and I do not because there are, as you say, other remedies available for me, I do want to register a complaint that is reflected in Mr. Lo's own speech, that these by-laws have already been accepted in the Committee of the Whole. It is in the public meeting that we accept the By-laws not in the Committee of the Whole and I protest that this is being done too frequently at the present time.
MR. HENRY H. L. Hu (in English):-Mr. Chairman, as I always say that the matters concerning the public interest should be debated in public because, Mr. Chairman, I wholeheartedly support what Mr. BERNACCHI said that our Council is a public body. If every thing has already been decided in a Select Committee or in a Committee of the Whole, then the public will not know what we are actually doing. Therefore, I support what Mr. BERNACCHI said that it should not be frequently used that every thing has been decided in the Standing Committee of the Whole.
MR. HILTON CHEONG-LEEN (in English):-Mr. Chairman, I do support the motion. I am not too sure what Mr. BERNACCHI has in mind. What he said was that some matters, such as the subject matter of this motion, are not given to be debated in public. Admittedly, it has been debated both at the Select Committee level and within the Standing Committee, and from what has been reported by the mover of this motion, the points which form the text of the motion have been supported both within the Select Committee concerned and the Standing Committee of the Whole. What does appear to me, and as a matter of very great importance to the public, is that the subject of this motion has been studied in detail by the Select Committee which is a specialized committee, and also by the Standing Committee of the Whole which reviews the work of the Council in its widest context from the point of view of general policy. At the same time, this motion is now moved in a public meeting and it is up to any Member who opposes it, or who sees that there are flaws in the motion in the public interest to raise his or her objections. Now if Mr. BERNACCHI opposes this motion and has good grounds for it, I certainly would like to hear them. I am sure that this particular right is applicable to any Member of this Council. If we object to anything in this motion, let's hear it in public.
MR. B. A. BERNACCHI (in English):-Mr. Chairman, in clarification, I was only using the substance of this motion as an example of what I regard as happening too frequently nowadays, that is to say, decisions taken in Standing Committee, some of which never reach the floor in a public meeting.
MR. T. S. Lo (in English):-Mr. Chairman, I agree partially with Mr. BERNACCHI because, as usual, Mr. BERNACCHI is half right. (Laughter). Obviously he is right in saying that the public meeting is a place where you debate matters. He is wrong, obviously, when he says that Standing Committee should not be used to discuss or decide matters. In fact, the whole purpose of having Standing Committee as I understand it is, in fact, to discuss and to decide matters. I don't think, and correct me Mr. Chairman if I am wrong, but I don't think that we have, any one of us, been told that we cannot debate any matter in this Council in public within the terms of Standing Orders. If that's so, then clearly Mr. BERNACCHI will be right. If that's not so, he is wrong.
MR. TSIN (in Cantonese):-Mr. Chairman, in principle, I do agree that all public matters should be discussed in our public meetings, that's what I had said. But when we move a motion in an open meeting, whether the matter has been discussed in a Select Committee and the Standing Committee of the Whole Council and someone object it without any success, then we have to know whether this is the point. Have
Page 55 of 187
79
HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
Page 55
Page 56