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tion of what the administration ought to be, but there can be no justification on the part of Government not to haul the Fire Services Department over the coals for this lack on their part of a proper understanding of what the public interest is in the matter of licensing of restaurants and also of construction of apartments and buildings.
Sir, may I then urge that the example set by such other Departments as the Public Works and the Medical and Health Services be put before the Fire Services so that that Department too may be represented in our Select Committee. I do not think that there can be any excuse for the Fire Services Department not to co-operate with the Urban Council Select Committees, because their Directors have been known to be rather articulate persons--some have gone from the Fire Services Department into politics elsewhere. (Laughter)
Therefore, Sir, I support this Motion.
MR. BERNACCHI:-Mr. Chairman, Fire Services come under local councils in nearly every major city of the world-why not in Hong Kong? Admittedly, Hong Kong has the New Territories, but the Urban Services Department and the Resettlement Department go into the New Territories, i.e., outside the area of the control of this Council, although in practice both departments, even in the New Territories, are guided by the policy decision of this Council applicable to urban areas. I suggest that the Fire Services Department could well follow the example of the Urban Services Department and the Resettlement Department. In fact, to enable the Urban Services Department to go into the New Territories, the much commented upon Section 55 of the Public Health and Urban Services Ordinance was appropriately altered, so there can be no legal opposition to the other way round.
Mr. Chairman, I support this Motion.
MR. FORSGATE:—Mr. Chairman, sitting in the middle of the River Styx I find myself rather like you, Mr. Chairman, caught in a cross-fire this afternoon.
In the late nineteen fifties in my capacity as a warehouseman I had ample opportunity to observe the operational workings of our Fire Brigade as it was then called. My Company suffered a series of disastrous fires in godowns involving raw cotton and while none could dispute the bravery and skill of individual fire officers and men there seemed to laymen like myself a lack of many essentials. Principally, trained men, adequate and up-to-date equipment and above all senior personnel with the experience and ability to assume competent tactical control. But Mr. Chairman the Fire Services Department of 1965 is a far cry from that of 1959. Now only half way through its Ten Year Plan started in 1961 to reorganize and re-equip it is acknowledged by competent Fire Authorities from all over the world as a model organization from whom overseas countries frequently request advice.
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Authorities from all over the world as a model organization from whom overseas countries frequently request advice.
Without, of course, knowing what was to be said today in support of this motion, I have over the holiday weekend, at the expense of my golf, delved into the History of the British Fire Services by G. V. BLACKSTONE which I firmly recommend as both instructive and good reading.
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I find therein that the first part of Mr. CHEONG-LEEN'S statement “As Local Authorities are normally responsible for fire prevention services” is not very accurate. The record shows the inept and inefficient control exercised by lay committees and councils over the fire services in Britain brought that country's fire defence to the brink of collapse during the "blitz" of 1940/41. The British Government took control and welded the 1,400 odd fire brigades into the National Fire Service with the promise that the brigade would revert to local authority at the end of the war. This denationalizing process happened in 1948, but instead of returning the brigades to the 1,400 odd pre-war councils, 135 fire authorities were instituted, but still firmly under central Government control. This is exercised in a number of ways to ensure this vital service does not again fall under the disrupting influence of "parish pump" politics. I may say that Scotland, recognizing the vast improvement in its Fire Services under the National scheme decided to retain the structure of regional organization initiated by the National Fire Service. Northern Ireland authorities are now pressing for all their fire-fighting resources to be brought under direct Government control. No doubt England will shortly follow Scotland's example!! (Laughter)
Now what should the United Kingdom's bitter experience teach us here in Hong Kong?
The 1964/65 Report on the Fire Services Department the last completed by that energetic and capable, and as Mr. SALES says vociferous administrator, Mr. R. G. Cox, who has since retired, shows a remarkable transformation in all respects. Especially in morale and efficiency and subject to the Finance Branch of Government releasing funds we will by the end of this decade have a Fire Services Department second to none.
Already their results are impressive. Last year the fire loss per capita in Hong Kong was $2.77 compared with $18.00 for the United Kingdom. The cost of maintaining our Fire and Ambulance Service was $5.00 compared with $8.00 in the United Kingdom, so it should be obvious to the most materially minded amongst us, that we are getting very good value for our money.
The argument that this Council should control, manage, call it what you wish, Fire Services in the Urban Areas, leaving the New Ter-
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