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MR. BERNACCHI:-Then, Mr. Chairman, are you prepared to refer my question to this Council in Standing Committee of the Whole?
CHAIRMAN:---Indeed, yes, Sir, if you wish.
MR. SALES:-Sir, is it not a fact that in the old City Hall (Policy) Select Committee I suggested that a room should be set aside to enable the Urban Councillors to meet members of the public and discuss matters relating to the Urban Council and its work?
CHAIRMAN:-I believe that is the case, Sir.
MR. SALES: Mr. Chairman, is it not also a fact that at that time Government turned down the suggestion on the pretext that there was no room in the City Hall?
CHAIRMAN:-Sir, I cannot vouch for the accuracy of that statement. As I recollect it, I was not on this Council at that time.
MR. SALES: -Mr. Chairman, even if you as an Official Member do not recall that, my colleagues who are Unofficial Members of this Council certainly can bear me out. (MR. BERNACCHI :-Yes) Sir, if it is Government's intention to support the Legislative Council to the extent that Government has announced that it will do, is Government likewise prepared to extend the same financial and staff support to the Urban Council to set up a similar office which this Council suggested several years ago?
CHAIRMAN:-Sir, if the Council wishes me to make any representations to Government in the manner which you have proposed, I will be glad to do so.
MR. SALES: Sir, may I ask, in conclusion, why it is that such representations have not already been made to Government when Government was considering this facility for the Legislative Council. In other words, may I frame the question differently so that its import is clear to all concerned. Why is it that the wish of the Urban Council to have such facilities was not made clearly known to Government when this whole matter was considered?
CHAIRMAN: -Sir, I would like to make two observations. I am not well acquainted with the proposal that was made in connexion with the City Hall, but as I understand it, from what I have heard, it was that a committee room should be provided in the City Hall in which Members of the Council could meet members of the public. I have always been under the impression that a room was provided for Members of the Council and that it is adjacent to the room in which we are now sitting. I know that it is not greatly used. Secondly, Sir, I would like to mention that I was not aware of the proposal to appoint an "Ombudsman-type" officer for the Legislative Council and therefore I did not have occasion to make any representations on behalf of the Urban Council in the matter. I am of the opinion that any representations that were made by the Urban Council in connexion with the provision of accommodation in the City Hall were duly forwarded to Government at the time.
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MR. SALES: -Thank you, Sir. If that room which adjoins this one was intended as a Members' Room, why is it that no bar facilities have been provided? (Laughter).
MR. CHEONG-LEEN:-Mr. Chairman, may I ask you to be good enough to clarify your reply? Do I understand from your reply, Sir, that there is no such thing as an Ombudsman being proposed by Government nor is there any intention to establish an Ombudsman committee in Hong Kong?
CHAIRMAN:-Sir, on that aspect I have nothing to add to the answer which I have already given. The explanation is contained in the quotation of the statement by His Excellency the Governor.
MR. CHEONG-LEEN:-Mr. Chairman, I am not asking for further information; I am asking you to clarify what has been said. I do not understand it, because many members of the public, and even certain sections of the Press, are under the impression that an Ombudsman system is being set up in Hong Kong, and from the reply given, that does not appear to be the case.
CHAIRMAN:-Sir, I can only suggest if you read the reply carefully you will understand what His Excellency the Governor has explained.
MR. CHEONG-LEEN:-Mr. Chairman, I have read it many times over, (Laughter) and I gather that it is not a proposal to set up an Ombudsman as the term is understood in other countries, in New Zealand, in England, in Sweden, nor is there any intention to establish an Ombudsman committee. All I understand is that we already have a UMELCO Secretariat and it is possible that this Secretariat might be able to adapt the essence of an Ombudsman system. Is that correct, Mr. Chairman?
CHAIRMAN:-That seems to be the intention, Sir. (Laughter).
MR. CHEONG-LEEN:-In other words then, Mr. Chairman, there is no attempt being made by Government to establish an Ombudsman or an Ombudsman committee in Hong Kong?
CHAIRMAN:--No mention is made, Sir, of an Ombudsman committee in the reply.
MR. SALES: Surely, Mr. Chairman, you must be wrong because Mr. CHEONG-LEEN has read the reply several times. (Laughter).
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