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disposal is public opinion. It cannot- and I do not think it would be desirable that it should have the power-interfere with the sovereign rights of the Admini- stration in any of these countries. All
it can do is to bring to light the actual facts as they exist, and then publish them to the world. It is, as I see it, for that purpose almost essential, and cer- tainly in the highest degree desirable that there should exist some permanent, impartial, highly-skilled body, such as was sketched by Lord Lugard-some kind of Commission.
I do not think it would be so desirable to have a section of the Secretariat. The Secretariat cannot act in any way in criticism of any one of the Members of the League. I think it must be a Com- mission outside the Secretariat, but of a permanent character. I think that is essential, and certainly it must be of a highly-skilled and impartial character, and consist of men appointed not because they belong to this or that country, but chiefly because they are men in whose skill, probity and knowledge the world will have confidence. Then it must have a continuous policy. It will not merely deal with some particular grievance or scandal, but it will have a continuous policy of setting up a standard of free- dom and pointing out that this, that or the other circumstance fails to come up to that standard of freedom. I regard this continuity as almost its greatest value, and then it must have skill and knowledge.
There are two other reasons why it is very desirable to have such a body. At present it is recognised that slavery is an international matter, but if anything is to be done, if any attention is to be called to a condition of slavery in any particular country, it must be called by some particular Government getting up› before the Assembly or Council and being placed in the position of accuser of that particular country. That is an exceed- ingly invidious position for any country to take up, and not very desirable from a broad international view. It is far better that the information should be furnished to such a body as this Com- mission, and then this Commission would be able to consider it and take whatever action it thought right. Lord Lugard told us how valuable he had found the unofficial communication when sitting on the temporary Commission. I agree that
Fiscount Cecil of Chelwood.
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it would be one of the most valuable characteristics of a body of the same kind that unofficial information could be put before it. Undoubtedly, the impar- tiality of such a body is also of im- portance. In the Liberian case the fact of the impartiality of the international Committee, consisting very largely of States which had no direct interest in Liberia, was one of the greatest elements of the possibility of success in this matter.
I ought to say one word upon the dif- ficulty which has always been found in pressing this proposal upon the League of Nations, for it is not a new proposal. It was put forward in 1929, and again in 1930, and I have every reason to hope that it will be put forward by the Gov- ernment in 1931. The great difficulty is the fear that the countries feel that this will result in an interference with their sovereignty. There is a very widespread feeling, not unknown to your Lordships in this country against any interference by foreigners in any matter of national administration. There
are the less respectable difficulties of those who simply wish to conceal disreputable transactions which are going on under their own authority; but apart from that, which I hope is a very small influence, the main difficulty is the fear of inter- ference by foreigners in national adminis- tration. Well, I think it very important that those who advocate this proposal should make it quite clear that no direct interference is contemplated at all. All that is contemplated is that this body shall set up a standard of administra- tion in the public mind, and shall be in a position to publish to the world the facts of any particular case.
It is mere publication that is contemplated, and no interference beyond publication in the administration of a country.
I would say to those who are afraid of a proposal of this kind, what is the alter- native? The alternative is violent agitation at intervals dealing with some particular case. Some country is brought up as it were at the bar, very often of quite uninstructed public opinion. The matter is raised, it may be, in the Assembly of the League of Nations, or in some national Parliament, and some country is violently attacked, without any knowledge, without any recourse to any impartial body to clear its character. Surely, for every respectable Govern-
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"The second lesson I had was that the emancipation of slaves is an expensive business."
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[ 22 JULY 1931 ] ment, in a matter which is now recog- nised to be an international matter, it is of the first importance that there should be some impartial body before which they could go and say: Well, these charges which are now being sug- gested against us in the public Press or in public speeches are untrue, and we can show that they are untrue, and we are only too ready to have a full investiga- tion into them." It is far better that these matters should be treated by an impartial body, such as I have tried to describe, than by the chance violence and hetorical exaggeration of a political assembly, whether at Geneva or else- where. It is for these reasons that I personally am very, very anxious that we should press this matter forward to the utmost of our power at Geneva, and I very much hope that the Government will give instructions to its delegates to do so at the next Assembly.
LORD LAMINGTON: My Lords, I am in entire sympathy with the Motion of the noble Earl, Lord Buxton. The noble Lord, Lord Lugard, said it is quite proper that public attention should be drawn to and people made acquainted with the fact that it is estimated that 5,000,000 people are in slavery at the present moment. I do not think the public realise that at all. Then there is another aspect of the matter. Some of those who do know about slavery say that the slaves are generally fairly well treated and are happy and contented. May I read from a speech lately delivered at a meeting of the Anti-Slavery Society by Sir Harcourt Butler, who has had such a distinguished career in the East, and who was instrumental in putting down slavery in Burma? He told his audience never to believe that slavery could be justified even when it is only a form of domestic slavery. He said:
"I have seen myself slaves on the con- fines of China, who I was told were living a happy existence. When I saw them myself I was satisfied that it was nothing of the kind; it is quite impossible to lead a happy and contented existence when your children, or your wife, or your husband may be torn from you and sold away
There
are degrees of misery; anyhow I came to the conclusion when I had seen it all that slavery is the worst thing that I have seen in the world,"
He then made another remark which bears on what Lord Lugard said about the emancipation of slaves in Abyssinia:
He says the third lesson he learnt was the necessity of looking after the slaves that had been emancipated. I think that is very wise counsel. You cannot expect anybody to have a happy existence who has no personal rights whatsoever, and is subject to gross forms of cruelty, usually without any redress. It 15 natural to mankind to be willing to oppress their fellow creatures. It is a natural instinct, as history has shown and experience has taught me in various parts of the world. I can remember that many years ago, in a country where the whole force of British administration had sway, a Judge told me that, where there is a white jury and a native is one of the people in a suit, the native could not expect to have any justice; it entirely depended upon the Judge to secure him a proper meed of justice.
Own
If that is the case where our system of laws is in full operation what must it be in countries where slavery is held by tradition to be quite right, and a man behaves cruelly to one of his slaves? Is it possible, except in very few instances, that there can be any proper redress? Some people think that many generations of this form of usage have habituated the slaves to their treat- ment, and blunted their feelings. To show how people do not become inured to cruelty, a medical man, Dr. Harrison, who had spent over 14 years in Arabia, described the terror of the slave when about to be punished. When one of these negro slaves, he writes, as if suddenly crazed, runs round shouting and gesticu- lating a-s if a new personality had possessed him, even the hard Arab masters, are a good deal awed and hesi- tate to inflict the punishment they have planned. In one sense that is satisfactory as showing that more humane feelings are becoming prevalent in Arabia,
I might quote other cases, but I think none of the speakers to-day have wished to harrow our feelings by a relation of the cruelties that have been and are being inflicted in China. Reuter's Agency, in a telegram in January this year, reported that over 400,000 slaves had been sold in China in recent years. That shows to what extent this form of servi- tude exists there. The trouble is that in
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