1
8di
30
HONGKONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL
of fact, in almost every case many of the this Colony and in England on persons depositors and creditors are known to the shops and firms to which feeen the estate, and the obligation is not not well who are not themselves receiving benefit they have lent money, I have had the case reported to me in which a Chinese to administer or part with, er pay away military officer come to this Colony any part of the estate of the deceased during the Revolution
મ
de without ascertaining that administration posited some money with a local Chinese has been taken out. The obligation in bank.
When he died, some men in this posed by this clause is, to my mind, an Colony knowing he had money with the obligation of the same nature except that bank. brought out a writ against him, it endeavours to oblige the third party to When his wife came to the Culony and act at an earlier date. The old obliga applied for the refundment of the money tion, which still exists in section 19, 18 abe was told that the noney had been that the third party shall not deal with attached and subsequently removed by the estate without seeing that probab order of the Supreme Court. Jo that cas: the Bank did not know who the this provision is that the third party shall duty has been paid. The bligation in depositor was, and as a matter of fact they did not care who he was or where not wait for payment of the beneficiaries he came from. All this, Sir. goes to show before taking action, but shall immedi that it is unfair, and it would be inately, on the death of the deceased per practicable to make managers or partners son, disclose to the Commissioner the fact of the firm or shop responsible for the of the interest in the shop, bank, or reported death of any of their depositors other business. As regards the last or creditors, whoso number may be up sub-clause of thit clause, Sir, that to one or two thousand, or a few thou is not without precedent either, because sand, There is another point, Bir, there is should like to touch upon.
& similar procedure under That is, the Ordinance, when the Chinese on the mainland know passed in 1875, for the recovery of Crown which I think was that they will be mulcted by law on their rent and other debts due to the Crown. death they will think twice before they The are prepared to lend money to Chinese satisfied on the question of the liability Colonial Treasurer, on being shops or banks in this Colony.
to pay the Crown rent, prepares a schedule and signs it, and that schedule prepared by him is prima farcir evidener of liability, and the onus ja then upon able for the rent claimed. Well, this the defendant to show that he is not Bill, Sir, with the proposed amendments. dure for the recovery of the $500 penalty. shown in italics, provides a similar proce which is to be recoverable in the sadn
as Crown rents are recoverable. It is net to be supposed that the Colonia! Treasurer will be prepared to sign a schedule under this clause unless he is
THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL-I should like to reply shortly to one or two criti- cisms which have been made by hon, mem- berg with regard to the principle of the Bill. The hun. member who representa the Chamber of Commerce suggested that because estate duty is not fair in its incidence it ought to be abolished altogether. Well, this Bill, Bir. is an attempt, which we hope will anccessful, to make incidence of estate duty fairer than it has been in the past, and to provide that satisfied that there is a prima facie case perty which has frequently escaped in for suing for it. It will then lie upon the the past shall not escape in the future. With regard to the points defendant to show such facts as may estab- raised by the hon. member who represents lish that he is not liable for the penalty. the Justices of the Peace, it is quite true I do not think it is necessary for me to that Clause 20 cannot be fourd in any discuss the general question of the desir existing legislation, eo far as I know, but ablity of an estate paying duty above it is not ontirely without precedent in what is necessary to provide machinery its underlying principles. He said that for securing that it shall pass to it was unfair that a third party, who the proper persons, because I think had no beneficial interest in the estate that must be assumed. With regard of the deceased, should be called upon to to what the hon. member who disclose or to report what he knew spoke last said, it is quite true in about it, but, Sir, there already is many cases, no doubt, that the manager a similar obligation in existence both in of a shop doce not know the individual
HONGKONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL
to whom a shara belongs. He may not know him by appearance, and he may not be sure of the exact amount for which the shop is liable to that person, but at all events, he can give the Commissioner what information he has. He raust know from the books that some person did deposit a sum of moacy or has some claim against the shop, and he can give the Commissioner every information he has in his power. Of course no i gisla tion ca“ oblige a man to give information which he has not got, and if he has no information of course he will not be liable to any penalty.
H16 EXCELLENCY-Gentlemen. I am afraid that I cannot accept the sugges tion that we should delete the most contentious clause in the Bill, Clause 20. If we were to eliminate that clause we should emasculate the whole measure. It would be simply a work of supererogation to pass the remaining clauses. Now the Arguments which have been adduced against the clause clearly prove that it is necessary. We are told that it will deter the Chinese from coming to the Colony and investing their money here. There could be no greater admission that they do not pay probat duty. If they paid probate duty this clause would have no terrors for then at all. Everybody objects to paying taxes, and it has been suggested that we should abolish the probate duty. Last year we received from it #208,000 ödd, and in the year of the unfortunate demise of Sir Robert Jardine and the demise of Mr. Granville Sharp, and of various Chinese property owners, we benefitted to a very much larger extent. Therefore, it we were to abolish the probate duty we should have to substitute something else. It appears to me that the probate duty is good duty. We have had many instances here in which men have grown very rich, not so much by their individual effort as by the appreciation of property due to the progress of the Colony, to which the whole community contributes, and it seems to me right that the whole community, as represented by the tax payers, should benefit on the demise of such a person, who has during his life not paid more taxes than they. but whose estate is mulet in a certain proportion of the larg inheritance which he leaves behind him. We have done our best to provide some
559
40
moans by which the leakage of Chines properties which have been revealed to us from time to time by actions in the Supremo Court might be stopped. Well, thos: in the Government service who know most on the subject have ene te the con- elusion that there is no other means than that embodied in this Bill. It is a drastic clause. but a drastic measure is needed; just as, when you need a net, there is no cther way of doing it than by making the hole in the net of as close a mush as that with which the hole is surrounded. These are the facts, and I think the Government is in a strong position. Therefore, I am sorry to say we cadnot meet unofficial members of the Council by any furth r concessions.
Council then went into Committes to consider the Bill clause by clause.
The amendments printed in italics in the re-print of the Bill were approved.
On Clause 20,
THE HON. MR. HEWETT-I beg to move, Sir, that this clause be deleted absolutely. We have listened with very great interest to what you have said on the subject, and quite ralis that by deleting this clause it would be likely to interfere with the whole of the Bill. But wo still believe, after very careful con sideration of the facts, that the benefit to the Colony by encouraging Chinese capital to be invested her would b greater than it would be by imposing a probate duty of this character.
THE HON. MR. POLLOCK seconded.
HIS EXCELLENCY-I would only point out that Chinese money comes to the Colony for one reason, and ose reason ouly; to increase and multiply under our protection, and all we ask is for some return for the protection we are giving, My own opinion is that if you pass this you will find that the attraction of the Colony and the good security it offers. and the increased mearity it offers over what you can get in the mainland, will stil! prova so strong that the terrors that hon. members seem to see will prove but mere shadows.