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and did not think he was prepared to admit she was; that as a matter of fact the peoples of Southern Europe were virtually excluded by the regulation which required that all immigrants to be entitled to admission should come direct to Canada from the country of their origin or citizenship. There were no direct lines from these countries to Canada. That Greeks and Italians and the like were being excluded for much the same reason as Chinese labourers, there was a difference in their standard of living, and their numbers were becoming such as to make them a factor in competition with Canadian labour. The reason the Chinese were kept out while certain of the peoples of Europe were admitted was because the standards of living of the latter were more like those of the people of Canada, when they came in they were similar in their habits of living, whereas the Asiatic standard was quite different. There was some further discussion on the subject of standards of living, when Mr. Liang finally said that he was prepared to admit that there was a difference in the standards which he thought should receive consideration, though he held to his view as to what had been guaranteed by Treaty.
This discussion led me to remark that I presumed it would be clearly understood that any arrangement which might be eutered into would not exempt Chinese from the application of general laws and regulations of the Dominion respecting immigration, or restrict Canada's right of legislating in this particular. In this Mr. Liang acquiesced.
When the question of the form of the Agreement was again referred to, I pointed out that Treaties were between nations what contracts were between individuals, and that I thought the reason Sir Wilfrid had spoken of a Treaty was that he felt in a matter of this kind, where many persons were concerned, there should be left no possibility of misunderstanding as to exact terms. Mr. Liang having again expressed a preference for an assurance in the form of a d'espatch, and having added that Canada need have no doubt in the matter of any assurance given by China, I said that I was not desirous of pressing at this stage the question of the form of the Agreement, which I would be glad to refer to the Government for consideratin; that for the present, the terms were more important, and the form in which they were expressed might depend in part on what they were.
The discussion then turned on the question of the next step.
Mr. Liang explained that the Grand Council would have to pass upon any arrangement, and that he would wish to have an expression of opinion from Lord Lee before submitting the matter to the Council. I asked Mr. Liang if, in order to expedite matters, we might not get together and draw up what would appear to be acceptable terms, which might be submitted later to the Grand Council in the event of it turning out that Lord Lee held views similar to his own. Mr. Liang suggested that I should prepare a draft which we might go over together. I then said. "As I understand it, what you are prepared to agree to is that contract labourers shall be prohibited except on the consent of both the Chinese and Canadian Government; that so far as free labour or labour other than such as comes under contract is concerned, it is to be restricted to such numbers per annum as may be agreed upon, and restriction is to be effected by the issuing of passports by the Wai-wu Pu, not to exceed a number agreed or words to upon, these passports to be viséd by a British Consul or our own officers," this effect. Mr. Liang replied that this was correct, and added, But we would ask that the poll tax be removed." I replied that this request was not unexpected; that, of course, if the Canadian Government were quite certain that China's voluntary restriction would be effective, and a satisfactory number were agreed upon, the raison d'être of the poll tax would be removed; that I had already explained the tax had been levied for purposes of restriction only, that it had not been intended as a means of raising revenue, much less as an invidious discrimination against Chinese subjects; that once the Government was fully assured restriction would be effective without the tax, I thought it would give the Government pleasure to remove it; that Canada was anxious to show they did not desire to treat the Chinese differently from others. I explained to Mr. Liang, however, that what he had requested would be a difficult matter to effect; until its effectiveness were evidenced in practice there would doubtless be a popular agitation against it, and this was a special reason why any agreement reached should make restriction effective beyond peradventure, and why the form in which it was presented to the public should be such as to carry great weight of itself.
Mr. Liang then asked what numbers I thought the Government would be prepared to advise. I replied that this was something which the Government would have to decide. I presumed that the view likely to be taken was that the numbers
could not be in excess of the number agreed upon with the Japanese; that if more Chinese were allowed in than Japanese Canada might have difficulties with Japan.
Mr. Liang said that, of course, China would expect that gentlemen entering should be properly treated at the ports, and added that if there should be an excep- tional case of a gentleman not having his passport, and being able to establish clearly that he was not a labourer, China would not want to have him turned back. replied that it would naturally be the desire of the Government to prevent friction, and to have relations as pleasant as possible. That in this connection, the right person as Consul at Vancouver might be of great service to China and Canada. I pointed out, however, how important it was that there should be no misunderstanding as to Canadian rights in the matter of Chinese coming without passports. Mr. Liang agreed that Canada might take such measures as she thought best in regard to Chinese who came without passports, and said that she would doubtless understand how best to regulate this herself. Sir John remarked that he understood ships which brought over persons without passports would be obliged to take them back. I said I thought they could be made to do this, and added, I presumed Canada would be at liberty without fear of offence to China, to refuse admission to any one who came without a passport. Mr. Liang replied, "Yes."
It was then agreed that I should prepare a draft of the terms of a proposed agree- ment which we might discuss together, and a meeting for this purpose was fixed for 11 A.M. on the morning of the 19th. Mr. Liang thought that once terms were agreed upon and Lord Lee had signified his assent, it would take about a week to have the proposed arrangement passed upon by the Grand Council.
Inclosure 2 in No. 1.
Interview between Acting President of Wai-wu Pu ond Mr. Mackenzie King,
March 19, 1909.
THE fourth interview with his Excellency, Liang Tun-yen was held at Mr. Liang's house on the 19th March, Sir John Jordan and I calling as arranged, at 11 in the morning. The interview related to the terms of a proposed agreement. I mentioned that in considering the matter, it had seemed we could not do better than take the existing legislation of the Dominion, and see what changes would be necessary, should the arrangement proposed prove acceptable to the two Governments. As I understood the proposal, it was that China would voluntarily restrict her own emigration within defined limits by the adoption of a system of passports, should Canada remove the poll tax. This, Mr. Liang said, was correct.
I produced the Canadian Act respecting Chinese Immigration (R. S. 1906, cap. 95), and the amendment of 1908 (7–8`Edward VII, cap. 14), and pointed out that it related broadly to three classes of Chinese :--
1. Persons exempt from the poll tax ;
2. Persons required to pay the tax, but entitled to a refund under certain conditions (viz., students); and
3. All other persons.
That an amendment to effect the object desired would have to be in the nature of a substitution of the passport requirement for the present tax of 500 dollars and contain special provision for safeguarding from abuse any privileges accorded students. I submitted a Memorandum briefly setting forth the probable wording of the Act should this idea be followed, and later produced a rough draft of a proposed communi- cation to Mr. Liang from myself, embodying what might be suggested as the essential provisions and understandings of the proposed agreement. I pointed out that for the present the purpose of the draft was to simplify discussion, that I thought we might go over it in the rough, that if exception were taken to any of its statements we could argue the points raised, and I would then prepare a carefully revised draft which would be submitted on the understanding that after Mr. Liang had had time to consider it carefully and we had further discussed its terms, a formal communication would be sent him on the lines agreed upon.
When shown the Memorandum setting forth the possible wording of the Act, should amendment be in accordance with the plan suggested, Mr. Liang said that the specifying of persons to be admitted raised some doubt in his mind, and asked why it was necessary to have a special Act relating to Chinese, that Canada had nothing of
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