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circumstances, there was something abhorrent about revenue being derived through a tax on human beings; that of course the tax had never been intended as a revenue measure: on the other hand if, in spite of the present amount of the tax, the numbers kept on increasing, I did not see how the Government was to escape raising the amount of the tax, or passing an exclusion measure.
That the tax was objectionable and distasteful to the Canadian people, especially when it came to represent revenue derived through a species of sweating; that if the Dominion Government could find any other way of effecting its object, which would enable it to show to the world that Canada respected the Chinese as a people, and that she was prepared to deal with them in a manner similar to that in which she had dealt with the Japanese or her own fellow-subjects in India, she would much prefer it, and the only alternative seemed to be that of restriction by China herself. I added that what was most to be feared, should the agitation for an increase in the amount of the tax become stronger through an increase in the numbers who were now coming in, was that there would be no discrimination in the agitation between the classes to be restricted and that the demand would become one for general exclusion.
Referring to the numbers who were coming to Canada, Mr. Liang thought that in a few years this feature would work itself out, that with the industrial development of China which he expected would be extensive and rapid, there would be a demand in China for all her own labourers. I replied that I thought it was true China would become a great industrial country, and that possibly, some day, there would be a home demand for all her labourers, but that this would not be in his time or mine, and we were called upon to deal with conditions as they are to-day, leaving it to future generations to cope with conditions as they might be hereafter. Mr. Liang thought that ten to twenty years might witness an industrial development sufficient to effect a change such as he had in mind. He thought the reason labourers were going abroad was because China had a silver currency while other countries had a gold standard; that this meant a great difference in wages. Once China had a gold standard, wages and prices would, he thought, begin to equalize themselves throughout the world. He would like to point out in regard to what has been said at the previous interview concerning differences in standards of living, that while a Chinese went alone to Canada he had his family to support in China; that he had the same obligations to meet as the white labourer and worked hard that he might send money home. It was because he sent the money home instead of spending it in the country that he was objected to. I replied that I was not one who held this view; that I believed a Chinese by his labour produced more wealth than would bave been produced had he not been there, and that notwithstanding what he sent home in the shape of wages, he might leave the country richer in material wealth. That from the purely economic point of view, I thought the presence of the Chinese had added to the material wealth of the Dominion; that it was quite possible they could make a considerable sum and at the same time the Canadian people, from the point of view of total wealth, be better off; that, in fact, the industry of the Chinese and his usefulness as a citizen in this respect could not be spoken of too highly. It was, however, the large Corporations and persons who had money to invest that henefited most. Their wealth might be increased. On the other hand, large numbers of working men might, through the competition of this labour, be placed in a less favourable position, and it was the duty of the Government to consider all classes. The working classes were the most numerous, and their interests had to receive full consideration. It might be easy for economists and men of education to see wherein certain classes of labour might be most valuable from the economic point of view, but it was not so easy for others who lacked special training to look on calmly at a condition which affected them adversely. That when these persons were sufficient in number to make their views felt, they had to be taken account of. When the Government saw that the presence of a particular class of people was likely to create trouble and lead to violations of the peace, it was its duty to take action to prevent anything of the kind. Mr. Liang said he thought if the Chinese did what was wrong and created a disturbance they should be punished. I replied that he had misunderstood me, that I was not referring to the Chinese; when I spoke of trouble I did not mean that the Chinese violated the law; as a matter of fact they had the reputation of being law-abiding, peaceful and industrious citizens. What I had intended to convey was that the Canadian people might create trouble and unrest, the occasion being alarm at the numbers of Asiatics coming into the country. Mr. Liang interposed that it was the duty of a Government to restrain its people. I replied that I quite agreed, and that the Government would do so, but
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that when the Government saw a certain situation was sure to create unrest, it would be neglecting its duty if it did not endeavour by proper measures to avoid the threatened danger.
I asked Mr. Liang, pointedly, whether he thought that China could restrict her own emigration. His first reply was that Canada could refuse to admit beyond a certain number. I asked how a plan such as he had hinted at during the previous interview, namely, restriction to a certain number with provision for a gradual increase, conld be worked out. Would the Government of China be able to restrict her own people, and could she confine them to a number agreed upon? Mr. Liang replied that once a number agreed upon were exceeded, Canada could refuse them admission. At this point, I explained that the plan the Japanese adopted was to issue passports; that Japanese arriving at Canadian ports without passports were refused admission. The Steam-ship Companies knew they were obliged to return persons who came without passports, and they exercised care to see that only those who had passports were carried; that by this system of passports the Japanese Government had it in its power to restrict emigration as desired. Mr. Liang thought the Chinese Government might adopt a system of issuing passports, that the Governors of the Provinces might be allowed to issue a certain number, and that Canada might refuse admission to any Chinese who came without passports. He enquired as to what course would be followed in the case of a Chinese coming from the United States or England. I replied that if he were an immigrant, a labourer, he would come under the general regulation respecting persons who came other than direct from their own country. I cited, as an illustration, the case of Japanese coming to Canada from Hawaii, and pointed out how this regulation also affected Indians who transhipped at Hong Kong. I discussed, further, the nature of the Agreement with Japan, and the restriction effected by it. and pointed out that the Japanese Government had recognized the difficulty as it existed in Canada, and had endeavoured to obviate friction that the friendliest relations might be maintained; that rather than be placed in a doubtful position before the world, the Japanese had been glad to undertake a restriction of their own people. Canada believed that the Chinese would be actuated by a like motive.
Mr. Liang mentioned that he had not had a chance to discuss the matter with other Members of the Government, and that he desired to get some information before proceeding further. The conversation at this point became more general. Reference was made to the intention of the Chinese Government to appoint a Consul at Vancouver, the name of Mr. Owyang King coming in for special mention in this connection. The possibilities of promoting trade between Canada and Japan were spoken of by Sir J. Jordan, as well as the advantages to both countries of Chinese students attending Canadian universities. Sir John also spoke of the patriotism of the Japanese, and the remarkable system they had of controlling their people and their emigration in particular. Mr. Liang said, referring to Manchuria, that the Japanese were pushing their people too far; which caused Sir John to remark that this would enable Mr. Liang to see what the situation was in Canada, that China, in this particular, had the same difficulty as Canada; the Chinese did not wish the Japanese to compete with their people.
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Mr. Liang asked if there were more Japanese in Canada than Chinese, and the conversation then turned on the question of numbers of Orientals in Canada, and on the proportion of Orientals to the white population in the Province of British Columbia. gave Mr. Liang a statement showing by years the numbers of Chinese who had paid the capitation tax since 1885, and a statement of the total numbers who had entered the Dominion, also an estimate of the numbers of Chinese, Japanese, and East Indians in British Columbia, in comparison with the white population. These figures I supplemented with official reports concerning emigration from the Orient, and more exact information in a communication sent Mr. Liang on the following day. In the statement produced, I pointed out how the numbers of immigrants had fallen off when the capitation tax was first imposed, and each time it was increased, and drew particular attention to the increase in numbers during the past two years, notwith- standing a tax of 500 dollars. I said that if this increase continued agitation would certainly develop to a point where either the tax would have to be raised or an exclusion law enacted, that a glance at the statistics would show this was inevitable. If the numbers could be reduced by voluntary restriction on the part of China it might obviate the necessity of action of this kind. Mr. Liang was of the opinion that the Chinese who were paying the tax could not be coming from China in such numbers, that they must be from either the United States or Hawaii. I replied that the statistics did not show just what parts they were from; it was certain, however, that
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