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have intended to bargain away by Treaty rights of British subjects in a Colony to the extent that their existence as a people would be imperilled, which was what his interpretation of Treaty rights would mean under conditions as they are at the present time. I said it was quite true that Canada had the power to exclude Chinese altogether, and that I hoped the Chinese Government would recognize in the purpose of my Mission the fairness of the attitude of the Canadian Government, in that Canada was willing to refrain from exercising this power, should China be willing and able to restrict her own labourers.
Mr. Liang asked what I meant by "labour," and I explained that broadly it might be taken to include all persons who worked for “ wages," as distinguished from those whose remuneration was usually described as "salary." Asked as to whether this would embrace carpenters as well as coolies, I replied that the term included both "skilled" and "unskilled" labour.
At this point I briefly outlined the arrangement effected with India for the purpose of restricting immigration from that country, and drew particular attention to the Order in Council which prohibits the landing of all immigrants who come by other than continuous journey from the country of their citizenship or origin. I pointed out that this regulation was of general application, and not aimed at the peoples of any particular country.
In conclusion, I mentioned that I thought the Canadian Government was prepared to consider an arrangement which would be reciprocal in its nature; that Canada would not ask China to restrict any classes of subjects from going to Canada where she was not prepared to restrict like classes of her own country from going to China; and that the law as it now stood did not restrict bond fide students, merchants, tourists, Chinese officials, or members of the Diplomatic Corps. Mr. Liang remarked that as Canadian labour would not desire to come to China such an agreement was very one. sided and not truly reciprocal. I agreed that at the moment Canada might gain most in the way of what was desired concerning certain classes of labour, but that, so far as conditions would permit, such an arrangement would be reciprocal in the truest sense; that conditions might change in the future; and, besides, under such an arrangement China might secure privileges for some classes which might be impossible without it. That Canada did not wish to deprive the Chinese of the opportunity of profiting by anything in the way of light or learning in her civilization; that she welcomed Chinese scholars and men who sought ideas. Moreover, she hoped for much from them, and looked forward to her own people profiting by the learning of the Chinese. It was quite a different thing to seek to restrict a class that was being brought to Canada only to be exploited and to serve a selfish end. As near as could be ascer- tained, the class of labour it was desired to restrict had been in the past brought in at the instance of Corporations or individuals desirous of procuring labour at a cheaper rate than it could be obtained in the local market, or was a sort of indentured labour, the labourers being brought in under a system of bondage akin to slavery, that the Guilds or individuals paying the tax might reap profits from such an investment. Brief mention was also made of the numbers of Orientals at present in the Dominion, and of the proportion in the Province of British Columbia of the Oriental to the white population.
Mr. Liang said there would be little advantage in an Agreement if Canada were to be free to place her own interpretation on its terms; that China did not wish a repetition of the kind of treatment her peoples had received in the United States. I replied that Canada was equally desirous of avoiding misunderstandings and friction; she did not wish to provoke any boycotts. That if either party were to be free to place any interpretation on a Treaty, I agreed there would be no sense in entering into one; that this would have to be kept in mind in the drafting, and terms so worded as to leave no doubts as to their intention and meaning. The whole purpose of my Mission was to effect some arrangement which would remove the possibility of even the appearance of discrimination against Chinese; that Canada hoped in this way to promote friendship between the two countries, that their mutual interests might be furthered thereby.
Mr. Liang, at the conclusion of the interview, requested me to give him a state- ment in writing setting forth what was desired, saying that with this before it the Chinese Government would be in a position to say what it could do. It was arranged that a second interview should be held at Mr. Liang's house on the day following, and I agreed to hand Mr. Liang the statement at this interview.
Inclosure 2 in No. 1.
Memorandum of Interview with Acting President of Wai-wu Pu, March 10, 1909.
ON the afternoon of the 10th March, the second interview with Mr. Liang took place as arranged, at Mr. Liang's residence. To admit of greater freedom of discussion, it was understood that this interview should be less formal than the interview at the offices of the Wai-wu Pu. Mr. Liang was unaccompanied, as were also Sir John Jordan and myself.
As promised on the day previous, I handed Mr. Liang a statement in writing as to the object of my mission. The statement was as follows:---
"Should China be in a position to control her emigration to Canada and be willing to restrict the same within defined limits, the Government of Canada is prepared to consider an agreement respecting the admission of Chinese to Canada, based on a voluntary restriction by China of her own emigration.
"It is understood that the terms of such an agreement shall be the subject of negotiation between the Governments of the two countries, and I am authorized to discuss such terms on behalf of the Canadian Government with the Chinese authorities."
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After reading this statement, Mr. Liang asked if it were wished to conclude a final arrangement while I was in China, or whether it was desired that action should be taken by the Government at some future time. I replied that I had come to ascertain whether the Chinese Government were prepared to consider an arrangement along the lines suggested, and if so, to discuss terms. I was in a position to be able to indicate what was likely to be acceptable so far as Canada was concerned, and having fully discussed the question, would be in a position on returning to Canada to explain the views of the Chinese authorities. That verbal explanations were more satisfactory than cable communications. That it seemed best, all considerations surrounding an agreement should be fully understood by the members of the Governments of the two countries, and it was desirable, therefore, negotiations should be carried on with a view to arriving at terms likely to prove mutually acceptable, the understanding being that both Governments would have an opportunity of considering any proposed agreenient before giving a final acceptance. There might be alternative propositions to consiler and legislation might be an essential preliminary of any final arrangement.
Mr. Liang then said that if labour was to be restricted in any event it seemed that the arrangement proposed meant casting the odium of doing an unpopular thing upon the Chinese Government, in order that the Canadian Government might escape this odium. If labourers were to be kept out, he did not see why China should do the keeping out instead of Canada. He did not think there was a politician in China who would dare to recommend such a stop, and he did not think any Government in China would be willing to attempt such a task. This opinion Mr. Liang subsequently repeated, saying that for the Chinese Government to tell its people they were not to leave China to go to Canada was for the Chinese Government to slap its own people in the face that Canada might be relieved from slapping them. I replied that it was with a view of removing altogether the feature of odium from the relations between the two countries that Canada thought it well to see if some arrangement on the basis proposed could not be made; that there was a distinction between restriction and exclusion, and that he would observe it was the question of restriction which Canada was proposing to have considered: that there were certain classes of Chinese Canada might be glad to have come, that there were others, the numbers of which she might desire to restrict; that it was the question of numbers as it affected the industrial classes which had made the whole situation so difficult. Referring to what Mr. Liang had said in reference to restriction being in the nature of a slap, I said that it was to substitute the hand of friendship for what might have the appearance of an affront that Canada was seeking to effect an arrangement along the lines suggested. I was prepared to admit that the capitation tax was a disagreeable feature. It stood, to appearances, as a mark against the Chinese. The tax, however, had been imposed not with this object, but to effect the restriction of a certain class, without going the length of exclusion. The numbers who were paying the tax had so increased that I felt, and I of late a considerable revenue was being derived from this source.
no matter what the thought Canadians generally shared the feeling, that
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