ant and bis witnesses and to wat
tary evidence. The administration of justics quem in China is notoriously corrupt, and the ease
cused that anything be states ma
זי
"Pavs yanaf PRELD Eng no Yudaq RINKYJĻA Sopwith which documents purporting to be against him on the trial at the Buros day of egissed of snow »fficial may be forged is also well known.
quo ng maan os from sea to “seppu, gg p
*KATTHI
Court, bat the Magistrate cannot
Marosets. to any decisio evidence or come whether the defence is good or nå) decision in MULLER's case is to be folly evidence of au alibi can be even by the Magistrate bere." The int
will in of Government of the
be declared when the
course
is considered that the duty of
--frm all DÂȚariaí authorities I have talked to
The Daily
Press.
THE CHINESE EXTRADITION BILE.
After very
Members
i add more than a word or two. The Bill points I have not heard a single suspicion that since out what crimes ar included ander the treaties, that case-I don't say that case, because I did and it simplifies the procedure. The crimes not know of it, but I mean for the last ten years, with one exce tion are the same as in the Ex-tradition Acts of 1870 and 1873 in England, and aude rtainly with regard to those given up in the whole Bill seems to have been framed upon my time, there has been no suspicion that they
I do not propose to take up the great attention to
wore wanted for political purposes. I have givenj
ll the cases, because to my ♫ HONGKONG, May 28th, 1889. time of the Council any further.
mind signing one of these extradition warrauts. Anal We therefore contend that
no alleged
The COLONIAL SECRETARY seconded. *eg
is worse thau signing a death warrant. There una criminal should be surrendered to China on
Hon. P. RYREE-With regard to myself and has been no doub, although the evidence as to this Bill I am desirous of making au important His EXCELLENCY-Before proceeding with -KSEN MAPQ magjors off pintedo aq »j sa
the other unofficial members, we feel that this particular circumstances might be open to doubt announcement with regard to it. is very serious matter. The Bill contains one that the men were real criminals. The proof full and earnest consideration I have determined justice, on the other Haus pay documentary evidence, and that the chiuse
very objectionable clause, that the evidence portant that the surrender of persons ap- above referred to should be struck out of the
taken in Chinese courts shall be received here, was, as far as paper went, porfect, and I should to omit the clause which has given rise to con bare had no justification for setting it aside siderable discussion, namely, that with reference plied for by the Chinese Government should Bill. This seems to be the only weak point
and there are other clauses that I think are also but ten there is the feeling that you never to depositions taken in China. objectionable. Our Chinese fallow subjects are get a genuine witness from the Chinese be bedged about by suflicient safeguards in the measure. The question of a guarantee
will easily see that it would be impossible for me Hon. P. RYRIE-Then do away with extrudi to give reasons for this, but with their permission and restrictions to prevent the facilities for jagainst torture is not dealt with, but this
the people yo run the chance of being affected
tion altogether.
that clause will be dropp d from the Ordinance. extradition being used by unscrupulons per may perhaps be wore appropriately left to proposed for second reading, and
time to consider it in all its bearings. The Bill not only that this place should become the re gaarter or quarters, which I have every reason His EXCELLENCY-Then are you prepared Further, I may state that enggestions from a sons for the purpose of extorting money from the discretion of the Governor in each part-gistrate to receive whateve.vided by the Bill, and I do not think they have had
may be very good one, but, my experience sort of all the criminals who can escape from to respect, bave been made to me with regard to or otherwise terrorising the peaceable Chinese cular case. The question of procedure ou] accused may be able to produce in f
of extradition has been most unsatisfactory. We China, but to give rise to international diffical the fear created among the respectable Chinese residents of this colony. The case of the the trial is disposed of in what we consider fence is left in doubt by the Bill as
had a memorable case of men being kept in ties and ultimately perhaps to war? If all the by this measure, or rather by the feeling that! notorious LEE LUM KWAI occurred nut so jan entirely satisfactory manner. By clause it will doubtless be amended. The gaol for eighteen months. There is no prosi oriminals who escape from China cau come here extradition would be made so easy as to ossibly ision is the Bill that men shall not be tortured and live with impunity it is only a question affect them and cause them to be placed under long ago that its lesson has been forgotten. 10 it is provided that "When a fugitive evidently is that the Magistrate såd
after they are given up. It was laid down by of time when the irritation that is growing pressure. If the Bill now proposed had been law in criminal is brought before a Magistrate, he vestigate the case thoroughly, and pia
The suggestion made to me in order the Secretary of State that no criminal should
among the Chinese authorities will break out to remedy this was one which it was quite im. position to report upon it be given up unless on a guarantee-and a gua 1874 there can be little doubt that LEE Lum shall bear the case in the same manner, and self in a
it is one that will co te sooner or later. KWAI would have succeeded in extorting have the same jurisdiction and powers, aa near- correspondent says it is the Migrantee that could be relied on that he should do not say that is an immediate prospect, but possible to adopt, namely, to make the Ordinance
not be tortured. I saw a letter from Her is a great consideration, as I sup ose no one porary residents.
And it apply only to persous who have been very tem- Why it was impossible to 85,000 he attempted to levy, sacrificing one before bin charged with an indictable offence cannot weigh it or come to any decise lency's predecessors, warning him not to give
certain ten up because they would be tortured his neighbour. These considerations I am sure ance of this Colony any provision which practi or more of them to prosecution in the Chi- committed in the Colony. The Magistrate whether the defence is good or not.
They were subsequently converted to Roman on members will take into account. The diffi- cally limits the operation of the Treaty. If put face to avoid the difficulties that exist on the about that. At the same time I have thought a nese Courts on suborned evidence if that shall receive any evidence which may
Magistrate shall send to the Govern Peking was applied to, but he would take no
and white that there was no reliable guarantee insecurity, rather the contrary, to inhabitants of that. wherever any person has been for a good this law will create not the slightest additional object may be served in another way. I propose together with such report thereon
the prisers would not be tortured. I have The intention is clear myself great doubts about the Bill and should the colony as to whom there is the least suspi- time in the Colony, say one year, the cass as thinks fil."
cion that their rendition is applied for for impro-presented by the lugistrate together with the like farther time to consider it. think, that the Magistrate shall we
Hon. B. LAYTON-I beg to second the motion per reasons.
depositions taken shäll, before the Governor Hou. P. RYRIE asked the Colonial Secre- gives any warraut for extradition, be considered received in evidence in proceedings under committed in the Colony has an undoubtedavidence and come to a decision on the of the senior unofficial member that the second tary if he could give the particulars as to the by the Governor in Council with the aid of the The duty of the Mags reading of this Bill be postponed, at least until case of the thirteen met the speaker had pre-Chief Justice of the Colony. Of course that this Ordinance." It is further provided that right to call evidence on his behalf, and a of the case.
Whatever views we may v.viously alinded to.
only gives security of proof. It is not "such depositions, statements, or affirma. prisoner whose rendition is applied for will this respect was clearly laid down share about the Bill must be affected by
The COLONIAL SECRETARY said he would be in opposition to the Treaty. It is therefore per- tions, and copies thereof, shall be deemed to therefore bave an equal right. We observe of LEUNG ÅFU, decided in the the remarks Your Excellency bus made. | able to give the particulars at the next meeting.Ifectly allowable, and my conviction is that it will
14 b June, and I think if we have a little more time to consider those remarks, and an opportu
His EXCELLENCY-I think the police report have the same effect while it is at the same time be duly authenticated for the purpose of that a contrary reading of this section has this Ordinance if they purport to be certified been adopted by the China Mail, which says; that case the Magistrate refused
we have 440 Chinese criminals in the colony at legitimate. I think if, as suggested, the Bill bas nity of reading them as they are reported, this moment. The Chinese authorities do not caused fear, the knowledge that even after being under the band of the Judge, Magistrate, or," We interpret this clause to mean that evidence for the defence, and on th; we may be able to form a better opinion as to ask for them to be givou up, because it costs dealt with by the Magistrate, the case of resid. Officer before whom they were taken,tebe the the Magistrate may only hear evidence for the Court ordered the discharge whether the Bill should moet with the support about $5,000 apiece. I don't th n any one doubts ents of some length of time, will be dealt with
i
from his intended victims the squeeze of ly as may be, as if the prisoner were brought duty to take down the evidence, but Sesty's Consul at Canton to one of Your Exe 1-doubts, that we should keep in amity with our adopt it was this; we cannot put into an Ordin.
be
evarse should have become necessary in the tendered to show that the crime of which section 11 of the Bill it is directed the Catholicism and released. The Minister at culty is perhaps the severest I have ever had to there it would be disallowed, there is no question nefarious design. The the prisoner is accused is an offence of a depositions and other evidence in responsibility, and the Consal put it in back one hand and the other. As I have said, I believe great deal over the matter and I think the same
pursuit of bis Bill provides that “depositions or statements political character, or is not an extradition A prisoner brought before a Ma- on outh or affirmations taken in China and crime." copies thereof shall if daly authenticated be gistrate charged with an indictable offence
original depositions, statements, or affirma- the defence which relates to the question tions, or to be true coples thereof, as the case whether the crime is of a political character, may require, and if they are sealed with the lor is not an extradition crime." The mistake official seal of some Officer of State in China." appears to have arisen from our contem- Now can be little doubt that LEE LUm porary overlooking the first part of the Kwarcould have produced reasis of such doca- section, or being ignorant of the fact that ments, and if the clause above quoted passes persons accused of an indictable offence com- into law it will afford a ready means of turn. mitted within the Colony are entitled to ing on the screw when it is desired to squeeze make their defence before the Magistrate if Chinese residents of the colony. In Lag they are so advised. The same words--" di Lum Kwar's case his intended victims ac if such person were charged with a crime or tually offered him a substantial sum, two or indictable offence avarmitted within the
is hound to hear evidence for
Court
the
prisoner. "It appears," the Court
#1
its judgment, that there were e nosses in attendance and tendered of the prisoner, and whether their evid worth anyibing or nothing, in our they should have been examined.” "Lex's" opinion as to the right of
that in the judgment in LEUNG A gistrate to take evidence of an ali the Court quotes and adopts the a judgment by the paaange from
the next meeting.
of the anofficial members or not. As the hon.
the case.
mber has said, there are certain objectionable that that is a sort of thing that ought not to exist. by the Governor in Council with the assistance points about the Bill, especially that about his clause that has been referred to I quite ad- of the first legal authority in the colony, will the depositions taken in Chinese courts, and if it is obje tionable so long as you don't take cause those fears to be suppressed. That this the second r ading could be postponed I think into consideration at the circumstances of measure is a useful one I have no doubt. You have to take a very broad view. I have a report from the Police that since it would meet the wishes of must of us.
is EXCELLENCY-I have not the slightest ob- wall. This very clanse about affidavits has ben ber of well-known criminals have left the You cannot look at it through a chink in th the introduction of this Bill a large nm- jection to postponement In fact I am scarcely in a condition to conduct a debate ou the subject suggested by Her Majesty's Government.
Colony, but at the same time I am given to Hon, P. BYRIE-Has Her Majesty's Consul understand that they intend returning if this today. even supposing the postponement were
Bill is thrown out by the Council, and although His EXCELLENCY-In order to write the we do not know that these men have been com on the contrary desire all possible consideration should he given, I will postpone it till next meet despatch I read reports. I know all the Con-mitting crimes in this Colony, it is certain they objectionable, but as I see no objection to it, but at anton been consuited:
u résumé of have been making it their basis for depredations Sear.tary of State. Depend on the neighbouring province of China. That' ing, or even farther if necessary. But with ra. sul's views and I have given ference to those points the hou. members have them to the mentioned. In the first place, as regards torture "pon it. the whole subject has been looked is a state of things which is a scandal and will
roy that there will not be torture. Whether
three hundred dollars, to cease his perseca. colony"-occur in the old Ordinance, No. 2/Justice SNOWDEN in a similar ea It has been a standing instruction of the Segre at all round, and although there is no sola-certainly sooner or later lead to trouble. If Government think this i the best. I go respectable Chinese hero, we can in any way tion, and had he been content to accept this of 1850, and under this it has been decided the depositions there was no stulen tary of State that uo person should ever be givention that has not obj etions Her Majesty's without in the slightest degras injuring the the accused were called on to plead up at all without an undertaking from tho Vice-farther and think het before long you will remedy that state of things, we shall have amount the matter would probably never by the Supreme Court that the Magis all it does not appear that they was that nndertaking is carried out or not, it is be forced to ignore to a great extent that imperformed a very valuable service. However, have become public. Under the new Or. trate
given, and we cannot get anything more. If ongkong in this respect and make it very dinance, it would only be uecessary for a the defence. In Ordinance 2 of 1850, how, what they had to say in their deal possible for us to say. The undertaking is aginary line which exists betw.en hina and the great stumbling block to general assent to:
though they might have been able because of souo suspicion that in some partionlar easy for people who escape to this colony to be given up. At present it is fortunate for them wver, there is no schedule of extradition! man of Lee Lum Kwar's stamp, in concert
should refuse to give up criminals, and if we that this is English territory, hat the offering with an unscrupulous mandatio, to get to cases nor is there any exception of pon beyond doubt either mistaken ide case that undertaking would not be fille
suppose the hon. member is correct in what he of such an asylum may produce in course of The Magistrate's power alibi, or some defence within they
time a state of things that will be intolerable; gether a lot of documents purporting to be fical offences.
the alleged crime of the Magistrate to hear." The
Han. P. RYSTE-I saw the official letter.
and I think it is coming to that. If we have depositions, have them sealed, and then tell to inquire whelber the person intended to be squezed that the of a political character or be an extradi-that the Magistrate is to condusi
the measure, that clause about the deposi- tions, has been removed. I shall explain to the Secretary of State, who suggested the clause, my reasons for so doing, but I cannot give theni fully here.
Hon. P. RYRIL-Your Excellency, by the with- drawal of that clause with regard to the deposi-
BIS EXCELLENCY-Well, are you prepared 400 criminals now who know they are secure Itions you have certainly removed one serious
these documents would be sent to the Go- tion offence according to the sabedule ia quiry in the same manner as if t59 for the only other alternative, that Hou. kone think it is only a question of time when stumbling block, but I think there are several vernment of Hongkong if black mail were specifically set out to the new Ordinance, were obarged with a critne commit should become flooded with Chinese criminals; they will largely increase, and you will then not paid before a certain day. The squeeze for these are points that would not come Colony, and that the accused is to bat erory Chinese criminal bas only to escape have to ignore the objections that have beongnarantee that after the prisoner is given up no
would most probably be paid. It is true within his province if his inquiry were con- the accused would have the opportunity of ducted solely as if it related to an offence sking his defence before the Magistrate, committed within the Colony. Otherwise the but be would have no opportunity of cross- Magistrate's duty in conducting the inquiry examining the witnesses for the prosecution, remains the same as it was before, and if he
יו
dered only on evidence which woul ficient to justify his committal, wa with the low in England, but with
with "charged Extradition treaties generally is it
Hon P. RYRIE The offenders who take re- that persons
proof of theirt but they don't swell the ranks of the burg-
larioas population here. used. The Courts, of co
BIS EXCELLENCyThere has not been the bound only by the Ordinance, but slightest suspicion of anything political in any the cases that have occurred of recent years. was not aware of a case that appeared in the Papers the other day, that of Mow Wong,
ongkong to be safe for evermore? Are yoprepared for that alternative?
Hon. P. RYRIR-It is not common criminals HIS EXCELLENCY-In my time the
want extraditi n for.
een rivials of the deepest dye.
rendition has been appliste e men
and almost the only effective way of meet-refused to bear evidence for the defence the may be surrendered, in the Chinefuge here are partly criminal and partly politi
the case against him would be to prove be-accused would undoubtedly be discharged the words "on yond all possibility of doubt an alibi. Tholos appeal to the Supreme Court,
II.
charge would naturally fix the date of the com- A few days ago a letter appeared in our
mission of the alleged crime at a time when
are
lature in making the law for the
of the Courts, are bound to take provision. Practically proof of fiued in the Bill to be such eviled justify the committal for trial
n
attention was thru cailed to it, but until the attention that was given us the Vecnsulted-judges, counsel engaged in maced a change, because all the that case
ers, who are therefore bonnl to take a par
the accused either had not yet come to Hong-columns signed "Lex" in which the writer, kong or bad returned to "China on a visit, alluding to the Extradition Bill now before so that to prove an alibi which would effec- the Legislative Council, says it may be quite against him would be exceedingly difficult, rused of an indictable offence within the soner if the offence had been coses-I do not mean counsel retained by tha pri. tually destroy the prima facie case made correct, as stated by us that "persons ac In the case of European powers the adminis- Colony are entitled to make their defence be- this Colony, and if the principletionlar view, but impartial anthorities, the law
tration of justice is recognised as pure, and fore the Magis rate if they are so advised;
in the case of LEUNG AFU oneers of the Crown and ces taint we do not
a person whose rendition is applied for may and, bend is, it is the Magistrate's duty adhered to there can be little fatsire to give up per us who are criminals, so-
isirly enough be surrendered on documeu-to take down the statements of the defend-carriage of justice.
that these offers may be considered impartial
here and are applied for at once the Ordinance urged. I don't think as to people who come is strong enough. However, the Secretary of State has concluded that this is the utmost that can be done at present.
more. Ons grave matter is with regard to the! great point in extradition cases, but nothing torture will be used. That has always been a very is said about it in this Bill. If it were proved i that we, a Christian Government, wera giving up men to he tortured, it would be at once brought before the English Parliament and there would be very serious trouble. Yet I see nothing in this Bill about it. The idea that we should i take statements from the Chinose Courts is ab- sard, because there is no such thing, that is to say there is nothing resembling our English Courts. The question is, shall we give up men who have been only a month or two in the colony, to be tortured? Is such a proceeding right? You would not hud any Consul in China who would give security that the men should not 'og' tortured. I have spoken to many of the Consula about the matter. Are we, as part of the British uation, to give up these poor creatures to be for- tured ? I am certain the people in England will not stand it There is no provision lu this Bill, however, to prevent it being done.
Hi8 EXCELLENCY-I thought. I had explain- į ed to hon, members that this Bill had not in that respect altered the present conditions. There' is a standing instruction from Her Majesty's