Dr. Ho KAI.—Don't you think the burning would be enough to disinfect the soil?
A.—I think it would do so to a large extent, not only the burning but the products of the fire would be soaked into the soil, charcoal, ash, &c., and that would have a good effect.
Dr. Ho KAI—And the heat?
A.—The heat would not disinfect much.
The COLONIAL SURGEON.—The Fire Brigade say that after fires it has been found over and over again that there is no heat in the sub-soil, not to any great extent, because there is so much water running into the ground to keep it cool. But in this case, where it is proposed to drop all the timbers on to the ground floor and not to use water at all, there should be a very great heat in the ground, especially if the fire lasts three or four days.
Surgeon Colonel PRESTON.—And afterwards the rain would come and soak all the products of the combustion into the ground.
Dr. HARTIGAN examined.
I don't think you can take one plan of treatment for the whole place. It is not all alike.
The CHAIRMAN.—Only the walled-in portion is under consideration.
Dr. HARTIGAN. I have not been there within the last few days, but I have seen it often before, and I should say the houses might be divided into four classes. First, those which are unfit for human habitation and which cannot be made fit under any circumstances owing to the nature of the ground—vide CHADWICK'S report. With these I should say you must level all the buildings—pull them down or burn them down as you like; that is, in my opinion, a mere matter of detail. On their rebuilding that part of the Colony the ground must be terraced so that each house is on a level, with no excavations shutting in the basements. Second, those unfit for human habitation, but which can be made fit; that is unfit on account of some defect in the house itself. Third, houses condemned as unfit owing to the pollution of the ground by sewage and bad drainage. I should have said in regard to the second class I would allow rebuilding but only in accordance with the Public Health Act. I do not see what it matters to the Government how an owner manages to comply with the requirements—whether he pulls down or burns or simply alters or what he does so long as he does comply with the requirements of the Act. As to the third class which I have mentioned—the pollution of the ground which must be distinguished from infection by plague; I mean simple pollution with drainage. The houses will probably have to be pulled down, not on account of the defects in the houses but on account of the sub-soil and the ground itself which is infected at present. The fourth class, dwellings unfit at present solely on account of the occurrence of three or more cases of plague. Out of 384 houses condemned, 118 are of the latter class. These, if otherwise in a satisfactory condition, I do not see any reason whatever for destroying. Professor KITASATO the other day, in the course of his lecture, told us all about the bacillus, and from his description, as far as I can see, it appeared to be the easiest bacillus in the world to deal with. I have known houses in Ireland where there are many cases of typhus—not that I look upon the plague as typhus, but only as something of the same nature—and although it might have been thought the houses could not be disinfected I have seen that they were made quite healthy and no cases recurred in them. I agree with Surgeon-Colonel PRESTON and the Colonial Surgeon with regard to the destruction of the woodwork. I do not mean the window frames, but the middle partitions, &c.; all these should be pulled away, not that I think they could not be disinfected but because it would be very difficult and most probably would not be done properly. I would absolutely forbid cock-lofts in the future. With regard to the saturation of the soil by bacilli, I do not think really there is anything in it. Bacilli cannot go down very deep, probably not too far to be dealt with easily, and digging up unnecessarily would do more harm than good.
The COLONIAL SURGEON.—In none of the houses is there a proper concrete floor, impervious in any way, as it should be. The best are only porous tiles, with nothing under them but the bare earth, and everything soaks in.
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Mr. TURNER. I have heard that said several times, but it is hardly correct. All the Chinese houses built in the last six years have had to have concrete under the tiles, four to six inches thick. You only see the tiles, and you conclude there is nothing below, but if you looked under the tiles you would find the concrete. Of course this only refers to the later ones; in the older ones there is nothing but the tiling.
The COLONIAL SURGEON.—I have seen the tiles broken—they are very thin—and I have poked them up with any stick, and what I found underneath was soft stuff thoroughly impregnated with filth. It may be supposed to be concrete, but that is what it really is.
The CHAIRMAN. Then you mean, Dr. HARTIGAN, that the structure of the house itself in these cases is not infected?
A.—No, I do not say there is no infection, but it may be disinfected without destroying it.
The COLONIAL SURGEON.—Dr. HARTIGAN agrees that the woodwork of the floors and cubicles is dangerous to health; that is all that would be destroyed by fire; the brick walls would not be destroyed, and could be used again. The cubicles must be destroyed, of course.
The CHAIRMAN.—You mean, Dr. HARTIGAN, not to destroy any house that can be made to comply with the Public Health Act without pulling down?
A.—Yes; I would lay aside the question of plague for the time. I would say any house that cannot be rendered sanitary must be pulled down, but not otherwise. The same thing comes in with regard to the removal of polluted soil. If it can be completely disinfected, there is no need to do anything more with it. I do not see why surface disinfection should not be enough, without going deeper and turning up the ground, for I do not see any proof whatever that the bacillus of the plague or of anything else is in the sub-soil.
Surgeon-Colonel PRESTON.—But the whole of the Tai-ping-shan district requires reconstruction, so that every house shall stand on its own level, and you cannot destroy half and leave half, one here and one there, you must do the whole thing at once.
The COLONIAL SURGEON.—You cannot reconstruct a district if you have houses left standing in the way. The whole question is one of light and air, and you cannot get that in these houses.
Mr. TURNER. Do you mean that in a block between two streets, say a hundred feet through, it is impossible to cut a lane in the middle?
The COLONIAL SURGEON.—That would not do what is wanted to be done. Some discussion ensued over a sketch plan explaining the point.
The COLONIAL SURGEON.—That district was just where we had the most typhoid, when I first came here; it was carrying people off wholesale in that district, and continued for years afterwards, off and on.
Dr. HARTIGAN.—Yes, we all know it is in an abominable state, and has been for a long time, but what I say is that it is possible to put it in a sanitary condition without entire destruction. While it is being taken in hand, I would advocate open surface drainage.
Surgeon-Colonel PRESTON.—Yes, open drains seem far more suitable for the Chinese.
The COLONIAL SURGEON.—But the question asked us by the Government now is—what should be done to render these places healthy for the future? And I defy you to render them healthy without destroying them.
Mr. JACKSON. The question put before us is—what is best to be done?
The COLONIAL SURGEON.—Destroy the whole lot.
Surgeon-Colonel PRESTON—Yes, destroy the whole lot, by fire.
Dr. HARTIGAN. But the question is, to my mind—what is necessary to be done? Not what is best.
The CHAIRMAN.—The question is—what is proper to be done?
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